[jusjay]

TheMonkey, All my strip times/speed have been on pure street radials. Only one run with slicks. My engine dyno at 510HP and 570TQ on Atlas's engine dyno and 428.3HP rear wheels on Westeks chassis dyno. I ran my all time best at FAMOSO (Bakersfield, CA) at the 2003 March Meet, it was a 12.21 on slicks. It launch will hard and I did not want to risk breaking something a 110 miles from home.

[igoslow]

My 200r4 was in a 65 GTO, came from a 1989 Turbo TA, cost me a grand to build, $400 converter, lasted 3 months - I'm back with the 400. Although the 200 was sweet, it did not last behind a built 389 with slicks.

[Goat-Racer]

I'm curious as to what all of these failures are with the 200s. I won't sugar coat any of my experiences, but my 200 has never left me stranded (knock on wood!).
I have injured a few intermediate bands and smoked a direct drum, but that was because of a low line pressure condition during launch. The deep pan fixed that.
I broke the band anchor pin (band to case) but a $25 300M pin cured that.
All of the other billet components that I run are just for preventative measure, and not becuse of a failure.

The TV adjustment is super critical on these units, but not difficult to pull off by any means. The 200s like ALOT of line pressure to stay alive, but that's not hard either. Proper pump clearances and some larger boost valves will do the trick.

Art built my trans back in 1992. No one has ever been in it other than myself since then. Fortunatly, I have access to all of the special tools needed to get one apart and back together again. A little phone support and some patiance is all that was needed.

Most of our cars will never see another 100k miles. We drive them on weekends and for fun. But there is really no reason that a properly built trans of ANY kind won't last that kind of mileage with normal use. Even in a heavy car.
Anything we beat on, wether it be engines, trannies, or rear ends, don't last like stocker stuff. Everything needs some attention and maintenance from time to time.

The 200s got a bad reputation from their very introduction back in the early 80s. It soured alot of people, and the fact that so many builders have botched them since, does'nt help things either.
Alot of thing have changed over the past few years, and it's great to be able to take advantage of what others have developed.

I dunno. I just hate to hear people bad mouth something because they THINK it cant work. Who would have ever thought that a Pontiac engine could make as much reliable power as they do nowadays?
I never would have. How about you?

[speedshopmike]

i don't have anything against the 200 tranny built right at all; they work great.
but in real life, it will not provide years and scores of thousands of miles of absolutely trouble free life in a 5000 pound car with a strong motor, whereas a t400 w/ a GV will do that and 10x more, then do it again without complaint.
i didn't say it won't work for a while; it will.
but guys with big cars typically don't wanna be punched in the back on every shift, like a built 200 will and if he is gonna spend big dollars, it should be for the best choice for his application, and one that will be bulletproof, and a 200 is not it, and i'm sorry if you don't like this, but it's true.
as for whoever thought ponchos could make reliable power, how old are you?
22 years ago i saw truman running 10's in his b/stock 400 inch firebird.
if i recall, he just 2 years ago broke his first STOCK connecting rod - he goes thru the traps at over 8000.
so, i've believed in pontiacs for a looooong time.
my first car was one and i've had a ton since, and have 2 now.
i'm well aware of all the trickery and spendy parts available and needed to make a 200 live behind big power, and support their use in the right application.
i spent well over $2000 to do the 700r4 for my syclone; i'm not anti 4 speed.
lastly, MY cars will sure as hell see over 100k upcoming miles, and i'd be pissed if my 2500 dollar crapped in 30k.
lastly, i'm not badmouthing anything; i'm stating common sense advice.
which i do for a living, all day, for a loooong time, owning the speedshop.

[Goat-Racer]

OK, so your right and I'm an Idiot.

[speedshopmike]

not at all in any way; i just try to look at the big picture/long-term scenario when i choose/sell parts, as it's my reputation/career on the line when i do so.

[Cliff R]

Since I build transmissions here, I'll add my comments in the FWIW "department.

200's transmissions have always had a very "spotty" survival rate in high HP applications. Early units, made prior to 1986 are FULL of soft internals, poor welds on shafts/drums, and should be avoided or completely upgraded with better stuff during overhaul.

The biggest "sore" spot in these units is the band and direct drum/clutch set-up. When they fail, it's almost always the band or high clutch, or both as the band tears the drum up.

We know scores of folks running GN's using these transmissions, some prepared by us, some by the "big" names, and they still fail at some point. They seem to be fine for several years in GN's warmed over a tad running into the low 12's and high 11's, but even the best prepared units still fail. The better the unit was prepared, the longer they seem to last, but they all still fail someplace.

The really fast GN's kill these transmission often enough that the owners typically go another route. Some shops and businesses that cater to GN's and build 200 OD's for big bucks, claim capabilities to and above 800hp. When I take one of these units apart, and see all the potential failure points, I just don't get a "warm and fuzzy" setting one up for someones 455 making 600hp and over 600ft lbs of torque, especially if the vehicle will see frequent dragstrip use with good traction. Behind a smaller and/or less powerful engine, in cars that spend most of there time cruising with occassional blasts down the 1/4 mile, not a problem.

One contributor above hit the nail on the head with these units, LINE PRESSURE is the key to long life, even with all the good stuff inside. One item not mentioned much is that the converter is equally as prone to failure as the transmission, and converter failures pump the unit FULL of ground up needle bearings, so it fails as well. The owner is often left wondering what came first, the chicken or the egg?

In any case, to get a 200 to live a decent life, expect to pay big bucks for one, and nearly as much for a good converter......Cliff

[critter]

So let's take it to the next level. What automatic OD transmission will live a long and healthy life behind the 500HP/500TQ, heavy car Pontiac and what should he expect to pay to get one in the car?

[roadrage david]

Originally Posted by Goat-Racer

OK, so your right and I'm an Idiot.

your,n idiot alright its speed shop mike,s way ore the high way!!.. i cant belive the talk about getting 150000 miles out of a th400 and a gear vendor please spear me this bs talk. getting 3 ore 4 years of serius strip and daily driving fun out of a 1200 usd tr2004r is cheap enoughf. getting a 2500usd, 800 hp tr2004r behind a 550/600 hp engine will last just as long as the th400 vendor combo only with 20 hp less paresitic loss and lesser driveshaft vibration known to ocure a lot with a gear vendor...................

[Goat-Racer]

Critter, are you talking heavy like an F body?

The 4L80E would probably be the next level you are talking about. Basically an electronically shifted TH400 with an integral OD. They are still a bit bulky when it comes to tunnel clearance, but theres always a tradeoff right?
Guys have had troubles with these too, but again, it all comes down to using a reputable builder and good parts.

Cliff, I cant argue with anything you posted above (I'm the line pressure guy), but my only intention with all this is just to show people that it CAN work and it CAN be a reliable unit. It just takes the right builder and good parts. (and maybee a little luck )

Mike I also understand your point about not wanting to suggest anything to anyone that you may not use yourself. I am in my twentieth year of being a parts guy, and you have a totally valid point.
A guy has to WANT to try something different in order to take advantage of it's possible benefits.

I'm probably pushing my 200 as hard if not harder than any other "conversion" car in the country. Yes, I had to be willing to get my hands dirty a few times, but i never let that discourage me from using the trans.
It was one of the best things I ever did for the car.

Peace

[speedshopmike]

roadrage dave, you got problems, man.
try proofing your posts before you hit submit, and look for a reasonable clue while you're at it.
someone might actually listen to you one day.

[Jack Ferris]

Originally Posted by speedshopmike

roadrage dave, you got problems, man.
try proofing your posts before you hit submit, and look for a reasonable clue while you're at it.
someone might actually listen to you one day.

Sipping bong water and posting don't mix....

[speedshopmike]

no kidding, lol.

[critter]

Goat racer, I understand about the 4L80E. I also know they are heavier, have more parasitic loss and are VERY expensive to setup right.

Yes, I was talking about my f-body. It was 4100 pounds with me in it at Norwalk this year. I also toasted my TH400 for the second time while racing at Norwalk this year. Since I intend to be a long hauler on the Hot Rod Power Tour next year I started looking for an inexpensive OD solution when that happened. I found that OD and inexpensive should not be used in the same sentence.

My solution for now has been to fix the TH400 and procure a second rear end with a set of 2.41 gears in it. I'll drop out my rear end with the 3.42 gears, swap all my rear disc brake parts over and run that while doing the highway boogie and then swap back when I get home.

That said, I'd rather find a permanent solution and not give up the benefits of my 3.42 gears at the track. While you have had success with the 200r4, most of those who I'd trust for an opinion have not. Sorry, I'm scared of them. The 4L80E is mucho, mucho $$$ and a lot of work to adapt. I don't think a 700r4 will take it but I'm curious about the 4L60E from later model trucks. Opinions?

[Cliff R]

"I don't think a 700r4 will take it but I'm curious about the 4L60E from later model trucks. Opinions?"

700's have a similiar "history" as 200's. Avoid any early units, prior to mid-year 1987, FULL of "soft" parts and "weak" areas. The 700 (4L60), received a complete makeover in 1987, upgrades/improvements to dozens of areas of the trans. There is very little, if any difference in internals/strength between an 87-92 4L60 and a later 4L60E. The 4L60E is simply fully electronically controlled, where 4L60's still use a governor and TV cable for all shifting. They still made several small improvements to 4L60E's, but any of those improvments work on any earlier 4L60's.

FWIW, I'd use a well prepared 4L60 WAY before even looking at a 200-4R. I ran one in my own 67 Impala SS for many years, other than blowing up the first aftermarket (expensive) converter we tried (took out the whole trans!), never had any issues with it after getting a better converter from another supplier.

As good as these OD's are, for my own car I stick to the TH400. Our first rebuilt unit went about 20 years with 4 different engines in front of it. Started slipping on the 2-3 shift, completely/correctly rebuild again, and holding up fine now for 5 seasons behind the new 455, with LOTS of track runs with good traction, and several thousand street miles......Cliff

[David Holmberg]

There is a local tranny shop that has found a way to make the 4l60's live in performance cars.

One friend, after going thru 5 of them with his 383 LT1 that runs mid 11's on the motor using So called race trannys found out. For the past 18 months he's street driven the car and run probably 50+ mid 11 passes with slicks, and another 20+ 10.60 passes on the bottle. He drives it to the track, and has put 10K+ street miles on it too without an issue.

The shops owner has a SBC with a Turbo in a 1500 Truck with a 4l60, and it has a Transbrake without any problems. If launching off a brake @ 4100 lbs with a turbo'ed 355 doesn't hurt it, I'm impressed.

But another friend has a GV OD unit in his Impala SS that runs 11's on motor and 10's on the bottle with a Turbo 400 without any issues.

Can the GV OD fit in a 2nd Gen?

[critter]

Yes, the GV will fit but with the same caveats I mentioned above. That's one of the reasons I don't want to use it, the need to round out floor pans. It's not noticable from inside the car so I guess I shouldn't be so worried about it. Just one of my hang ups.

When I did the GV install story for HPP magazine I spoke to the president of the company at length one day. He wanted more of a performance angle to be stressed in the story rather than economy. His point was that the gear splitting, when used right, could keep a car in it's power band better than any other auto transmission out there. I see some logic in his argument.

[speedshopmike]

critter, all the 4l60E internal upgrades that matter can be swapped into a 700, like the 5 pinion planetary, etc.
if you're breaking t400s, a 700 won't cut it either.
i second cliff's comments on the 700, btw - i'd use that before a 200.
the 4l80E is an ideal situation, but is spendier then anything else right now, as noted above.
just as if you swapped a 200 or 700, using an entire new trans enables selling off the old to recoup some of the money hit, of course.
one of my employees just built himself a 4l80e for a 3rd gen car with a turbo small block; what he learned along the way said really good things about these new boxes, like all other tech, will get less expensive to use as time goes by and the market realizes more ways to run the electronics.
they are huge and heavy, but ce la vie.
hope EVERYONE has a nice happy holiday time.
critter, why not build a 9 inch rear for your car?
then you could change out pumpkins in half an hour and have your highway gears or vice versa and more time to drive and have fun.

[Skip Fix]

Critter when my TA had 2.56s 4000 was around 130mph! It could do most of the Texas World Speedway road course in second.

[TheMonkey]

Originally Posted by jusjay

TheMonkey, All my strip times/speed have been on pure street radials. Only one run with slicks. My engine dyno at 510HP and 570TQ on Atlas's engine dyno and 428.3HP rear wheels on Westeks chassis dyno. I ran my all time best at FAMOSO (Bakersfield, CA) at the 2003 March Meet, it was a 12.21 on slicks. It launch will hard and I did not want to risk breaking something a 110 miles from home.

Understood. I suspect the 455 motor I am building now will end up in that range on the dyno. I'm trying to maintain a very streetable combo (tires, stall, OD), so I'll prob have the same type of deal. I have a 4L80E that I'll put in.

What kind of mileage do you get on your way to the track? Prob not a lot of cars driving itself that far, getting that kind of mileage, and ripping out a low 12!

Thanks for sharing the pic.