[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by charlie66

So what is going to be an effective method of getting the turbo to spool sooner with the set up that I have, or modifications I can make to the intake manifold or exhaust? If I make an intake then do I have to worry about a loss of performance once the motor is at an rpm out side of the harmonic resonance it was tuned for. It was never really clarified about the question I asked about a change in exhaust vale timing events, longer exhaust duration by opening it a few degrees sooner. What modifications to the exhaust system, shortening the run to the turbo, wrapping insulation from the header to the turbo inlet?

Harmonic Tuning typically works in a very small rpm range. You lose everywhere else.
Ford was able to incorporate a dual runner length/flapper valve deal that gave them 2 tuning points (A cruise point - Long Runner) and a WOT point - Short Runner) Lot of monkey motion for a slight bit better tuning on the cruise.

Adding a 150 shot of NOS gets you the Turbo Response/Power from the NOS/engine but now you are stuck being a Bottle Baby.

On the Trans Am cars years ago we would put a spark plug in the collector with a coil triggered by the second set of points on a dual point distributor. Engine ran on one set of points. Igniter ran on second set of points and separate coil. Engine went rich on accels off corner, coil fired plug in collector, explosions spooled the turbo up quickly.

Rodney Butler had a deal like that on his 63 Tempest for a while to get the turbos to spool quickly. Popping and banging away on the starting line.

Tom V.

[Jack Gifford]

Just an observation- Volvo is doing great things by using a centrifugal blower in combination with a Roots blower.

[Tom Vaught]

Jack, Borg Warner was doing the Turbo Side of this combination (see link) in 2005 and I was able to drive a Turbo/Supercharger 1.4L engine at that time. The Borg Warner People and I were involved in several projects of this nature.

They called the Technology "Twin-charger"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twincharger.

Supercharger filled in the bottom of the performance curve and then the Turbo took over on the top end.

More info here.

compounded boost is always produced as the pressure ratios of the two compressors are multiplied, not added. In other words, if a turbocharger which produced 10 psi (0.7 bar) (pressure ratio = 1.7) alone blew into a supercharger which also produced 10 psi alone, the resultant manifold pressure would be 27 psi (1.9 bar) (PR=2.8) rather than 20 psi (1.4 bar) (PR=2.3). This form of series twincharging allows for the production of boost pressures that would otherwise be unachievable with other compressor arrangements and would be inefficient. For a 1.4L engine the VW ran very well.

However, the efficiencies of the turbo and supercharger are also multiplied, and since the efficiency of the supercharger is often much lower than that of large turbochargers, this can lead to extremely high manifold temperatures unless very powerful charge cooling is employed. For example, if a turbocharger with an efficiency of 70% blew into a Roots blower with an efficiency of 60%, the overall compression efficiency would be only 42% -- at 2.8 pressure ratio as shown above and 20 °C (68 °F) ambient temperature, which means that air exiting the turbocharger would be 263 °C (505 °F), which is enough to melt most rubber couplers and nearly enough to melt expensive silicone couplers. A large turbocharger producing 27 psi (1.9 bar) by itself, with an adiabatic efficiency of around 70%, would produce air at just 166 °C (331 °F). Additionally, the energy cost to drive a supercharger is higher than that of a turbocharger; if it is bypassed, the load of performing compression is removed, leaving only slight parasitic losses from spinning the working parts of the supercharger. The supercharger can further be disconnected electrically (using an electromagnetic clutch such as those used on the VW 1.4TSI or Toyota's 4A-GZE, although this is not because it is a twin charged engine; it is intended only to bypass the supercharger under low-load conditions) which eliminates this small parasitic loss.

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Jack, Borg Warner was doing the Turbo Side of this combination (see link) in 2005 and I was able to drive a Turbo/Supercharger 1.4L engine at that time. The Borg Warner People and I were involved in several projects of this nature.

They called the Technology "Twin-charger"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twincharger.

Supercharger filled in the bottom of the performance curve and then the Turbo took over on the top end.

More info here.

compounded boost is always produced as the pressure ratios of the two compressors are multiplied, not added. In other words, if a turbocharger which produced 10 psi (0.7 bar) (pressure ratio = 1.7) alone blew into a supercharger which also produced 10 psi alone, the resultant manifold pressure would be 27 psi (1.9 bar) (PR=2.8) rather than 20 psi (1.4 bar) (PR=2.3). This form of series twincharging allows for the production of boost pressures that would otherwise be unachievable with other compressor arrangements and would be inefficient. For a 1.4L engine the VW ran very well.

However, the efficiencies of the turbo and supercharger are also multiplied, and since the efficiency of the supercharger is often much lower than that of large turbochargers, this can lead to extremely high manifold temperatures unless very powerful charge cooling is employed. For example, if a turbocharger with an efficiency of 70% blew into a Roots blower with an efficiency of 60%, the overall compression efficiency would be only 42% -- at 2.8 pressure ratio as shown above and 20 °C (68 °F) ambient temperature, which means that air exiting the turbocharger would be 263 °C (505 °F), which is enough to melt most rubber couplers and nearly enough to melt expensive silicone couplers. A large turbocharger producing 27 psi (1.9 bar) by itself, with an adiabatic efficiency of around 70%, would produce air at just 166 °C (331 °F). Additionally, the energy cost to drive a supercharger is higher than that of a turbocharger; if it is bypassed, the load of performing compression is removed, leaving only slight parasitic losses from spinning the working parts of the supercharger. The supercharger can further be disconnected electrically (using an electromagnetic clutch such as those used on the VW 1.4TSI or Toyota's 4A-GZE, although this is not because it is a twin charged engine; it is intended only to bypass the supercharger under low-load conditions) which eliminates this small parasitic loss.

Tom V.

Tom,
Just looking to check my calcs with those numbers above. I am off just a little. Does it say what they used as base BP?

Stan

[Tom Vaught]

Stan, Since the info above calls out 20 °C (68 °F) ambient temperature as the test condition in the info above (assumption is they were using NTP as the standard):

NIST uses a temperature of 20 °C (293.15 K, 68 °F) and an absolute pressure of 1 atm (14.696 psi, 101.325 kPa). This standard is also called normal temperature and pressure (abbreviated as NTP). So the pressure would be 14.696 psi or 101.325 kPa.

Tom V.

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Stan, Since the info above calls out 20 °C (68 °F) ambient temperature as the test condition in the info above (assumption is they were using NTP as the standard):

NIST uses a temperature of 20 °C (293.15 K, 68 °F) and an absolute pressure of 1 atm (14.696 psi, 101.325 kPa). This standard is also called normal temperature and pressure (abbreviated as NTP). So the pressure would be 14.696 psi or 101.325 kPa.

Tom V.

Thanks Tom. I am get 499.6 F So I am about 1% low. That is some old code and I am not sure I even want to look at to see why.

Stan

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Harmonic Tuning typically works in a very small rpm range. You lose everywhere else.
Ford was able to incorporate a dual runner length/flapper valve deal that gave them 2 tuning points (A cruise point - Long Runner) and a WOT point - Short Runner) Lot of monkey motion for a slight bit better tuning on the cruise.

Adding a 150 shot of NOS gets you the Turbo Response/Power from the NOS/engine but now you are stuck being a Bottle Baby.

On the Trans Am cars years ago we would put a spark plug in the collector with a coil triggered by the second set of points on a dual point distributor. Engine ran on one set of points. Igniter ran on second set of points and separate coil. Engine went rich on accels off corner, coil fired plug in collector, explosions spooled the turbo up quickly.

Rodney Butler had a deal like that on his 63 Tempest for a while to get the turbos to spool quickly. Popping and banging away on the starting line.

Tom V.

So if the runner tuning is not really going to help me much what can I do? I've been doing a lot of reading and looking at lots of different kinds of designs on turbo intakes. I like the bottom entry design. So I think I will attempt to build one. One of my uncertainties though is how long should I make the runners? Will making them straight with no bends or curves be beneficial or not? What will be a nice all-around length that will be ok in and out of boost. One good thing will be that all of the runners will be the same length where the Torker 2 has 2 longer then the another 2.

I like the spark plug idea. Could I just have a T off my coil to the plug right before the turbo and run it pig rich while trying to spool the motor?

[Tom Vaught]

Charlie, read this whole thread:

https://www.theturboforums.com/threa...design.361799/

Tom V.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Charlie, read this whole thread:

https://www.theturboforums.com/threa...design.361799/

Tom V.

I read it last week when you sent it to me ..

Very good thread . Thank you..

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

What is really nice about a computer is if you have a cam lift profile and cylinder head flow information you can generate the numbers from the graph at the bottom of page 34 without counting all of those squares.

Now if you are looking to help spooling, I would be looking at the exhaust system side if it was me.

Stan

Stan

Yes I have been looking at the exhaust and making changes to it. But one of the key reasons im having these problems now is having the converter tight to hold the power . Im at the loosest I can be to be efficient on the top end. So being I don't want to give that up I m looking for the solution elsewhere . But the spooling is just one of the problems . I also believe that the intake has too small of a plenum for this motor being boosted. So just like a air compressor with a small tank trying to supply 1 too many air guns , I believe when my motor is at full boost its getting starved of what it really needs. So the only way im going to find out is to build a manifold to suit .
So far I have the general design , I have the plenum size I want to try, runner dimensions, but im not sure on the length . The runners with be straight and 1 1/8 wide 2 1/4 high on the inside. Is there a way you could tell me what is a good length that would work well for a general all around car with boost? I was going to go short but then after reading about manifolds got confused about this so now im not sure anymore..

Thank you

[Stan Weiss]

Charlie,
I a not sure how much harmonic tuned lengths really matter on a turbocharged setup. That being said, to see how much a change will matter one would need to know what the present harmonic tuned lengths are to see what RPM(s) is being effected now.

A question for Tom. Does the turbo intake manifold runners need tappet like N/A manifolds want?

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Charlie,
Since I just posted this is the race section. I will post it here and give you something else to think about.

Stan

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Charlie,
Since I just posted this is the race section. I will post it here and give you something else to think about.

Stan

So I see what some of the variables are from the info below, but inside the formula there is a V subscript d, and the CR-1, CR+1, what are they representing?

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Charlie,
I a not sure how much harmonic tuned lengths really matter on a turbocharged setup. That being said, to see how much a change will matter one would need to know what the present harmonic tuned lengths are to see what RPM(s) is being effected now.

A question for Tom. Does the turbo intake manifold runners need tappet like N/A manifolds want?

Stan

The Torker 2 im using has around a 7 to 9 inch runner . If I went shorter would that be going in the wrong direction for driving around with out boost?

What is a tappet runner?

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by charlie66

So I see what some of the variables are from the info below, but inside the formula there is a V subscript d, and the CR-1, CR+1, what are they representing?

Charlie,
VD = Volume displacement of one cylinder
CR-1 = Compression Ratio - one
CR+1 = Compression Ratio + one

Stan

[Stan Weiss]

Originally Posted by charlie66

The Torker 2 im using has around a 7 to 9 inch runner . If I went shorter would that be going in the wrong direction for driving around with out boost?

What is a tappet runner?

Charlie,
My bad that should have been tapper.

The Pontiac intake port has a centerline length of just over 5 inches. So that would put you at 12 to 14 inches total length.

bore 4"
stroke 3.75"
rod 6.7"

From PipeMax

rpm 6000
- Induction System Tuned Lengths - ( Cylinder Head Port + Manifold Runner )
1st Harmonic= 32.757 (usually this Length is never used)
2nd Harmonic= 18.592 (some Sprint Engines and Factory OEM's w/Injectors)
3rd Harmonic= 12.980 (ProStock or Comp SheetMetal Intake • best overall HP )
4th Harmonic= 10.216 (Single-plane Intakes , less Peak Torque • good HP )
5th Harmonic= 8.289 (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned Length)
6th Harmonic= 6.973 (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned Length)
7th Harmonic= 6.019 (Torque is greatly reduced, even though Tuned Length)
8th Harmonic= 5.293 (Torque is greatly reduced, even though Tuned Length)
Note> 2nd and 3rd Harmonics typically create the most Peak Torque
4th Harmonic is used to package Induction System underneath Hood

rpm 2500
- Induction System Tuned Lengths - ( Cylinder Head Port + Manifold Runner )
1st Harmonic= 78.618 (usually this Length is never used)
2nd Harmonic= 44.621 (some Sprint Engines and Factory OEM's w/Injectors)
3rd Harmonic= 31.151 (ProStock or Comp SheetMetal Intake • best overall HP )
4th Harmonic= 24.519 (Single-plane Intakes , less Peak Torque • good HP )
5th Harmonic= 19.894 (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned Length)
6th Harmonic= 16.736 (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned Length)
7th Harmonic= 14.444 (Torque is greatly reduced, even though Tuned Length)
8th Harmonic= 12.704 (Torque is greatly reduced, even though Tuned Length)
Note> 2nd and 3rd Harmonics typically create the most Peak Torque
4th Harmonic is used to package Induction System underneath Hood

Stan

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Charlie,
VD = Volume displacement of one cylinder
CR-1 = Compression Ratio - one
CR+1 = Compression Ratio + one

Stan

Thank You

[Tom Vaught]

Charlie Pipe Max (from Larry M) is a very good program.
Ford bought a copy for me from Larry M years ago.
It stayed with Ford when I left. Otherwise I would offer the same info that Stan is.
I do not have a copy at home now.

Stan, are you saying TAPPER really or "Runner TAPER"

Tom V.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

Charlie,
My bad that should have been tapper.

The Pontiac intake port has a centerline length of just over 5 inches. So that would put you at 12 to 14 inches total length.

bore 4"
stroke 3.75"
rod 6.7"

From PipeMax

rpm 6000
- Induction System Tuned Lengths - ( Cylinder Head Port + Manifold Runner )
1st Harmonic= 32.757 (usually this Length is never used)
2nd Harmonic= 18.592 (some Sprint Engines and Factory OEM's w/Injectors)
3rd Harmonic= 12.980 (ProStock or Comp SheetMetal Intake • best overall HP )
4th Harmonic= 10.216 (Single-plane Intakes , less Peak Torque • good HP )
5th Harmonic= 8.289 (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned Length)
6th Harmonic= 6.973 (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned Length)
7th Harmonic= 6.019 (Torque is greatly reduced, even though Tuned Length)
8th Harmonic= 5.293 (Torque is greatly reduced, even though Tuned Length)
Note> 2nd and 3rd Harmonics typically create the most Peak Torque
4th Harmonic is used to package Induction System underneath Hood

rpm 2500
- Induction System Tuned Lengths - ( Cylinder Head Port + Manifold Runner )
1st Harmonic= 78.618 (usually this Length is never used)
2nd Harmonic= 44.621 (some Sprint Engines and Factory OEM's w/Injectors)
3rd Harmonic= 31.151 (ProStock or Comp SheetMetal Intake • best overall HP )
4th Harmonic= 24.519 (Single-plane Intakes , less Peak Torque • good HP )
5th Harmonic= 19.894 (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned Length)
6th Harmonic= 16.736 (Torque is reduced, even though Tuned Length)
7th Harmonic= 14.444 (Torque is greatly reduced, even though Tuned Length)
8th Harmonic= 12.704 (Torque is greatly reduced, even though Tuned Length)
Note> 2nd and 3rd Harmonics typically create the most Peak Torque
4th Harmonic is used to package Induction System underneath Hood

Stan

Stan

im doing my best to understand this. I don't think im going to understand it like you do so please bare with me.

So although under the 2500 rpm category you posted the 8 wave doesn't appear good it is in the neighborhood of the runner length you're saying im at. So being im looking to make the rpm area of where my converter stops at ( 2300rpm) make better power I will want to tune for that ?
I went to the Wallace calculators and found there intake runner & peak torque calculator. It asked me for Engine Displacement (cubic inches only ) I put 198 , Number of Cylinders 4 Peak Torque RPM, I put 4508 lbs , # of Induction Wave I put 8 for that . Is that right ?? Adv. Cam Duration I put 284 .
it came up with this = Optimum Intake runner area 2.53 square inches (calculated) and Optimum Intake Length 3.46 inches long (from valve head to plenum).

Could this be right??

[Tom Vaught]

Charlie, once you get much past the 4th harmonic you are basically killing torque with an out of phase induction runner which is why torque is much lower.

Maybe Stan can explain why you would use a 8th harmonic runner design in a vehicle driven on the street NA for a period of time.

Tom V.