[wovenweb]

FWIW, I know many of the Buick guys are going with Molnar rods.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by ck67goat

Dragncar - I've never heard of Molnar. Per their webpage looks like a newer company in Michigan. They say they do all machine work locally but source of forging is unknown. Their 6.625 length price certainly is competitive with Crower. (though I prefer a 6.8 rod). Has anyone had first hand experience with quality of their rods?

Regarding your quote below about SD rods -

"sometimes all you have to do is look at them sideways" for them to go.

I have not heard of any such issues except for the time period when aftermarket rods were unavailable and they were the best available for full race applications. Were those issues in greater than 600 hp applications? Also, I can see where 2nd hand rods with an unknown history could have issues or a bad wrist pin fit could cause a break you describe, but the ones I have are unused and I don't plan to cut any corners on machine and prep work.

The person I quoted was Jim Butler. He and Dan Whittmore had about the same opinion of SD rods. I have 1200$ into a set of them. Replaced them with a cheap set a CAT H beams for 300$, stronger rod. The small ends of SD rods are so thin its scary. Dumb. If you bush them even thinner. Molnar make rods in just about every length you can imagine. I have seen a few sets, very nice, on spec.
I am telling you, SD rods are weak below the pin, period. And the rod bolts while 7/16 neck down to 3/8, so in effect they are 3/8 rod bolts.
Dont waste your time if you care about your engine.
Tom Molnar was the guy/designer of Oliver rods. His rods are forged from a different company than Scat/eagle. He said if any rod or crank is out of spec at all, he will send a call tag, pick it up and get you a replacement free of charge.

[Skip Fix]

The SD rods I had were pretty heavy. I want to think 900 gms.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

The SD rods I had were pretty heavy. I want to think 900 gms.

You're correct Skip. Out of the box they are about 900 grams. With a little work you can get them around 850.

Much stronger rod than they're getting credit for around here.

[Cliff R]

Here's my 02 and I also use a 428/390hp 4 bolt main block with a later non "N" 455 crank in it. I'm almost positive my crank has that same part number on it but I haven't seen it since 2009.

Forget factory rods and forget 6.8". If the crank polishes out fine with Pontiac dimensions use a set of 4340 H beams in it, Eagle or the "knock-offs" are fine, you woln't break any of them. Go full floating for sure with Icon, Ross or equivalent pistons with the modern ring packs.

230 @ .050 even in a very well chose roller profile will NOT benefit from much past 260cfm head flow, so it's wasting money to go to more expensive ported versions of the excellent aluminum "D" port heads.....IMHO

If you want "max-effort" go the a larger cam and at least 10.5 to 1 compression, with very tight quench, and get 290-310cfm versions of those heads. No less than 236 @ .050" and .380" lobes. I am NOT going to pound my chest and argue LSA here, but for what we've done with these engines no tighter than 112 and 114 often works even better. ICL around 109-110, and you will be able to run whatever grade of pump gas you feel like putting in it with close control of timing/fuel curves. My engine gets a steady diet of 87 octane with zero issues anyplace. I do top it off with about half a tank of 92-93 octane on race days just to give me a warm and fuzzy but it probably doesn't need it.

Anyhow, a very "basic" build using 290cfm KRE heads from Dave at SD, his Old Faithful camshaft, RPM intake, Q-jet and 455 cid short block made 552hp/604tq and will have a relatively smooth idle, great street manners, and over 550ft lbs torque across most of the loaded rpm range.

My own engine uses this "recipe" except I use smaller chamber heads and 11 to 1 compression.

I'd also put a decent converter in it. The technology is out there so you really can "have your cake and eat it to". The converter is the single most important part of the deal here for effectively using this kind of power and vehicle performance on the street and at the track. We have converters that will act pretty much like stock converters for "normal" driving, but flash high enough at the track with traction to run 1.55-1.60 60' times and put the car solidly into the 11's with that kind of power pretty much in full street trim with decent tires and some traction.

Here is a clip of my car at track, notice the nice idle and it moves out at really low rpm's despite having a converter that "flashes" to 3500rpm's on the launch. Also keep in mind that it is "de-tuned" here to stay roll bar legal. Flat out it runs very low 7's at 95-96 mph in the 1/8th mile, and well under the roll bar rule even in pretty hot/humid weather.........Cliff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zVdoLR-VzM

[Dragncar]

Cliff, why do you say "forget 6.8s" ? You get a bit smaller bearing and have more undersized bearings available with 6.8s, or 6.7s . Doubt it matters much in the big picture. Going to run how its going to run.
Longer rods do help the piston keep stable on the bottom of the stroke.
Ever dyno a Warrior with some plenum work vs the other intakes. My 455 runs best with it vs them all. Have not tried a Northwind though.

[Cliff R]

Not saying there might not be a few theoretical advantages, but I've don't plenty of these engines in both configurations and you'll see no measureable power improvements for your efforts. So basically it's just NOT worth the expensive of cutting up a nice crank with offset grinding, etc when after the additional time/funds spent it woln't make one more ounce of power or run quicker at the track. There is also a distinct possibility that you'll get a crank back that wasn't as close anyplace as before you sent it out. The Pontiac factory cranks were very accurate, and unless you use a source that really has that deal figured out, it's likely to be a little off here and there in comparison.

What I would do for sure is to use light/strong 4340 forged rods and modern light pistons with modern ring packs, which will benefit the engine everyplace.dss

I've done a number of 455 Super Duty builds here and woln't even use the stock Pontiac forged rods in them for some of the reasons previously mentioned.......Cliff

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I've done a number of 455 Super Duty builds here and woln't even use the stock Pontiac forged rods in them for some of the reasons previously mentioned.......Cliff

Is one of the reasons "if you look at them sideways they fail"?

[slowbird]

The info about the SD rods is interesting. We had pretty good luck with them. Yrs of hard abuse until one broke at the big end but i think it was a bolt failure not the rod.

[AC445]

Hello all, contrary to some other posts, I had no problems using 485225 SD rods in the mid 70's. Spun 400's to 7000 and 455's to 6500 using heavy TRW pistons with lighter pins. We once broke a 455 crank at #2 main going thru the lights. Upon inspection #1 + #2 rods bent but didn't break. All the engines we built used the early no letter and A thru D codes. I often wondered how many of the thousands in service actually had problems.

[Richie Hoffman]

Used SD rods in late 80s no problems never used them bushed to many people I know broke at the pin end when bushed

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Richie Hoffman

Used SD rods in late 80s no problems never used them bushed to many people I know broke at the pin end when bushed

Do you know if any of those guys looked at them sideways? They probably did and that caused them to break!

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by AC445

Hello all, contrary to some other posts, I had no problems using 485225 SD rods in the mid 70's. Spun 400's to 7000 and 455's to 6500 using heavy TRW pistons with lighter pins. We once broke a 455 crank at #2 main going thru the lights. Upon inspection #1 + #2 rods bent but didn't break. All the engines we built used the early no letter and A thru D codes. I often wondered how many of the thousands in service actually had problems.

Ironically it's the only rod in this thread that came with a mileage warrenty.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by slowbird

The info about the SD rods is interesting. We had pretty good luck with them. Yrs of hard abuse until one broke at the big end but i think it was a bolt failure not the rod.

Is it possible John looked at that rod sideways when he installed the rod bolt?

[Cliff R]

The biggest reason I don't use them I that it's just better all the way around to go to a modern 4340 forged "H" beam rod already bushed for full floating, then put a good piston on it. Personally I've never been afraid of breaking one, but don't use any pressed pin set-ups here for any of our engines and have never really liked that set-up right to start with.......Cliff

[ck67goat]

Thank you all for the feedback. I won't run the SD rods simply because someone might want them for an authentic resto. They definitely are much more robust than cast rods.

For rod choice, after just spending half a day putting together something made in China and reading ridiculous instructions and seemingly an attitude that "just good enough" is the type of quality to expect of their products reminded me why I questioned the eagle rods in the first place. Helped me decide to use rods made in the good old USA and deal direct with someone passionate about our hobby. Though a street engine, I will make this one a solid one.

[ponyakr]

"... Helped me decide to use rods made in the good old USA..."


So, has it been established here that the cheapest rods forged & machined in the USA are Crower Rods ?

https://butlerperformance.com/i-2445...tegory:1234808

http://www.oliverracingparts.com/#four-pillars

[ck67goat]

The Molnar ones mentioned would make it at least 3 options.

[Cliff R]

Crower rods are very nice parts, we've used a number of those here and for sure you will sleep better at night if you put a set in your new engine, "street" build or "race". When they were first introduced they cost right at $600 a set, so it was the only forged rods we used for several years. As the prices creeped up to over $800 a set we used other "off-shore" options, including a couple of sets of the 5140 "I" beams. Although we never had any issues with the 5140 "I" beams, we've seen just enough of those let go of the pins (pressed fit) and have them walk out against the cylinder walls to avoid them.

We've used quite a few more of the excellent Eagle 4340 "H" beams, and when available the "Pro Line" 4340 "H" beams from KRE, as well as a number of sets of the Eagle "knock-offs" H beams Butler sells. Most of our engines have been 6.625" with Pontiac bearing sizes, but we have done a number of 6.8" long rods and BBC dimensions, zero issues with either. Although there are theoretic benefits from the BBC sizing, we can't see a nickels worth of difference on the dyno, at the track, or holding up better in long term service.

The only issue I've seen with the "H" beam "knock-offs" is that every single set was a little tight on the small end and needle a little help to get the pins fitted for them. Other than that little bump in the road they are excellent parts and fine to pretty high power levels w/o issues......IMHO.....Cliff

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by ck67goat

The Molnar ones mentioned would make it at least 3 options.

Note that those rods are FINISHED in the USA. He wants rods MADE in the USA.

http://www.molnartechnologies.com/rods-dom-pontiac.html

I've read that Eagle & Scat rods are FINISHED in the USA, but forged in China..

I assume then that Molnar rods are no more made in the USA than Eagle & Scat. Does this sound correct ?

So, is there any Pontiac spec forged rod, currently sold that is forged & machined in the USA that is cheaper than the Crower Sportsman rod ?

https://www.crower.com/connecting-ro...25-bushed.html

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/c...hoCddkQAvD_BwE

So, for those who can, and are willing to pay double for USA made rods, Crower is an option. Then there are several other higher priced options. Some are MUCH higher priced.