[Chief of the 60's]

I just recalled a situation in Norwalk a few years ago.

An early 20's kid stopped at my spot looking for '64 Bonny emblems. I had an NOS fender emblem and told him the price. I could see it in his eyes and then he said it, "That's more than I can afford". I ask if he was building a '64 Bonny and he said "yes".

I donated that emblem for the cause and told him that I felt good that someone his age was restoring not just a Pontiac, but a Bonneville. After realizing I was serious, the kid was happy as a Lark.

[242177P]

Originally Posted by foxgapLeMans

... We just got 23" of snow here ...

I've seen a lot of green advocates say gridlock is a place where EVs shine, because they aren't guzzling fuel. Wrong. If it's cold out, that heat doesn't come without a price. And most (if not all) new cars have that auto start nonsense now.

[getmygoat]

The new Teslas have heat pumps to mitigate battery drain during cold weather/commutes.

Tesla auto pilot is fantastic in stop and go driving. Reduces driver fatigue and reduces chance of rear-ending the guy in front of you also.

Battery technology is rapidly advancing. Think PC tech from 1980-2000. In 5 years, EVs will have twice the range and charge in 1/3 the time. Tesla's new battery architecture includes a "tabless electrode" that shortens the distance electrons need to travel during charge, reducing heat and increasing charge rate.

ICE cars, god love 'em, are like 20% efficient. Good tech in its day but past its prime.

[foxgapLeMans]

great story Chief, wish there were more out there like that. Bless you!
Back on thread, how long did it take GM to sell out out of the Hummer Electric?
Those commercials did not last long at all.
I guess those things sold out quick..... About the same price as the Tesla SUV? I saw one of those up here in the Pocono's once, nasty beast.

[getmygoat]

The GMC hummer is only available in limited quantities for quite some time (no batteries available). Initially they are only selling the high priced versions, which I believe are over $100k. Its just a marketing gimmick for now.

What people don't realize about electric vehicles is that its easy to make the vehicle, its the battery supply that is the fundamental constraint for the next 10 years.

[GT182]

Originally Posted by misterp266

I don’t think 100% non fossil fueled cars will happen very soon.
I am more concerned with the possibility that our older, less fuel efficient vehicles could be legislated off the road as a step towards the “green” idealistic yet unrealistic world.

I'm in full agreement with this. Not to be political [so this doesn't get canned to the Clubhouse], but it could happen sooner than we figure.

[Chief of the 60's]

Yep, these things will kill gas cars,

[70gtojosh]

Every mode of power has it's draw back. Whether it is gas, diesel, electric or whatever. I don't think there is 1 power source that is the answer for every part of the country. Why can't this country have multiple vehicle power sources? Then maybe the 1 power source would not be so strained. (If there was more than one choice) oohhhhhh wait I forgot about the massive amount of greed there is. Who remembers gm's ev 1? wasn't that in the 90's? Why did that get canned then? The oil companies put the lid on that one? Hmmm. With everyone saying they are going electric makes me think the oil companies are getting weak but how can that be? All this electric talk will take longer than you think. It would be farther along today if greed and burocracy did not rule the universe. All of the real great American classic and muscle cars are never going to die. If they do America is over.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by dataway

There is still hydrogen ... although engineers in the know say "Hydrogen is the fuel of the future .... and always will be." But IC engines can run quite well on hydrogen and produce great power, and exhaust water. Problem is again power density, takes a lot of hydrogen to do the work, and it's hard to compress and store in a safe manner in suitable quantity for a car. Not to mention it usually take more energy to produce hydrogen that it makes when you consume it, but that could change. Hydrogen would probably be used for electrical generation in hydrogen fuel cells rather than IC engines.

I have read some interesting articles on the production of hydrogen using natural biological processes.

Mr dataway, Tom Vaught here.

1) I personally worked on Hydrogen Fueled Engines for The Ford Motor Company for 15 years.

2) Do a search and you will see several engines that we built over the years and installed in different "platforms".

THE ISSUE IS WE DO NOT HAVE A STORAGE SYSTEM IN THE VEHICLES THAT WILL CONTAIN THE HYDROGEN GAS FOR LONGER THAN 7 DAYS CURRENTLY.

You fill your vehicle at a Hydrogen Fueling Station, yes we had them in California, Florida, Canada, Dearborn Michigan), and the exhaust emissions are extremely clean for the few days you have the hydrogen in your vehicle platform.

The second thing is the ocean is very deep in our earth in places. H2O.
Two parts of Hydrogen to One part oxygen. A Lifetime of Hydrogen in a very small space from the ocean is required when the ocean is thousands of feet deep with water. and millions and millions of square miles of water area.

So here is the deal, figure out how to seal up hydrogen in a fuel tank for more than 7 days and you are a Trillion dollar man overnight. I do not think personally you have much chance of that and neither did the Jesse James who thought he would just weld up some Hydrogen Fuel tanks for a Hydrogen Engine blast at the Bonneville Salt Flats. Really good guy but over his head on the Hydrogen Storage problem.

Tom V.

[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

Yep, these things will kill gas cars,

I worked in a restoration shop in my early 20's. They restored a 1912 Baker Special electric. It was maroon and had a turtle deck both front and back that held the batteries. The passenger compartment was very roomy - lot of glass. It was steered by a tiller just like a boat. It could be set in an upright position so you could get into the seat, then pull it down and you could then steer the car. The unique thing was that the car had 2 tiller's. You could steer from the front seats (buckets as I recall) or from the back seat, ie put your guests in the front seat and drive them.

The power was applied by a lever next to the seat, you pushed/pulled it forward/backward. The coach was sprung on leaf springs and it rode like a buggy and was a little "bouncy" as speeds went up. I recall I hit 30 MPH on a short road trip out of the shop with the boss. At 30 MPH it felt like 60 MPH. Acceleration was what you would expect with an electric motor - instant. Took no time to get to full speed. You wanted to ease into the throttle as it would slip those skinny tires if you pushed the throttle arm rapidly.

There were many electric vehicles in the early 1900's to include trucks.

I recall when there was a resurgence of propane powered vehicles and many municipalities were using conversions to run them - it fizzled out. Remember magazine articles on attempting to bring back steam powered cars in the late '70's/early 80's. Then there was alcohol and build your own still using corn to create your supply to run your car. Remember those kits that used dummy slugs in V8's to convert the engine to a V4 for better gas mileage. Of course, diesel powered cars was another fad - big MPG's for sure. I had a Nissan that got 50 MPG's, but that died as well.

Today, big rigs are experimenting with CNG. A big name company I deal with tried them to see how they worked. As I recall, each truck cost $250,000 and a government grant was provided to defer the costs. A CNG fueling station had to be built. Range is limited. The CNG runs "dry" so no upper cylinder lubricant. Heads had to be changed out around 60,000 miles as I recall. Spark plugs were $70.00 each. In general, the costs of maintenance for a fleet vehicle was extremely high and there was no true saving when looking at the cost of the vehicle and what it took to maintain them. They are now going back to diesel tractors at a ratio of 8 diesel to 2 CNG tractors. So CNG/Propane doesn't look promising.

I recall reading an article where the Army was experimenting with diesel-electric trucks, just like a train uses. I suspect the experiment did not meet military standards as I have not read anything more.

Funny how the electric trolley car network was pulled up so people were forced to purchase cars. Now we could use them again, what were they thinking - auto manufacturing profits?

Electric cars will become efficient when they put electrical current under roadways like subways have, and you can run along a stretch of road and pick up a charge just like a toy slot car does in making contact with the tracts to power it. I see it coming and gasoline cars, will be highly regulated with fees and insurances and most of us will only be able to polish our collector cars in our garages like a piece of furniture. I pity the fool investors who thought they would fetch big money over time only to find no one wants them like trolley cars, steam trains, radial engines, and printed materials. They will look good in museums, and suspect some museums will offer rides for $$$.

[Elarson]

Originally Posted by Chief of the 60's

I just recalled a situation in Norwalk a few years ago.

An early 20's kid stopped at my spot looking for '64 Bonny emblems. I had an NOS fender emblem and told him the price. I could see it in his eyes and then he said it, "That's more than I can afford". I ask if he was building a '64 Bonny and he said "yes".

I donated that emblem for the cause and told him that I felt good that someone his age was restoring not just a Pontiac, but a Bonneville. After realizing I was serious, the kid was happy as a Lark.

One of my favorite things with the Grocery Getter and Boss Bird was putting kids in the seat, having Mom and Dad take their picture and then ask them if they needed a car like that someday? Always got a big grin and a "YES"!!

Eric

[dataway]

Tom, what's the major problem with storage? Keeping it cold enough? Or at high enough pressure? Or both?

Does hydrogen like to propagate through materials when at high pressure?

In the Nuke field we always had hydrogen misbehaving in some way or another.

Think if the storage problems could be solved ... then direct solar to water electrolysis and you have unlimited hydrogen and oxygen ... just mix them back together and you get your energy, the end result ... you get your water back. Solar power in the truest sense.

Always kind of liked the fact that all power except Nuke is solar. Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons created using solar powered photosynthesis, hydroelectric is water carried on high by solar energy, wind is driven by the air currents created by solar heating, and I guess in the larger picture ... all the elements are created from base hydrogen in the furnace at the center of stars.

[Mr Anonymous]

This is all an energy density/storage problem. Only way that I see out of it is a portable nuclear reactor in a carrying case. It takes "X" amount of energy to move a vehicle of "Y" weight, aero, rolling resistance, blah blah blah over a distance of "Z" over an amount of time "T". A square foot of gasoline or diesel has a lot of contained potential energy, even though most is lost as heat. Will a square foot of battery be able to do the same amount of "work over time"? I could see an electric semi truck being 35,000 lbs of truck, 40,000 lbs of batteries, and 5,000 of available payload.

Those are my thoughts... currently, not even taking into account the amount of resources it takes to get the battery components mined out of the ground.

We need to capture the lost heat of the ICE and make use of it. A heat battery you could take out of the car and heat your home with after work. Something of that kind.

[ta6point6]

IMO electric is not going to be the complete answer for all vehicles, maybe a small part of the equation. Like someone mentioned it takes a lot of resources for these batteries to be made and they will get smaller but at what cost. Not to mention our electric grid is so outdated and needs to be updated.
I also wonder why we do not take advantage of one the US biggest resources Natural Gas. Almost everyone has a natural gas line hooked to their home. Why is this option not more widely pushed? All things being equal Naturual gas is better for the environment and widely available in your home.
I really do hope America actually starts looking inward and starts investing more in infrastructure like roads/bridges, electric grids that stop wasting energy and water conservation.

[SRR]

I think hybrids for now make more sense. Friend of mine has a Volt. The car is fast and handles like a slot car. Plus your not going to get stuck unless your dumb enough to run out of gas and battery. For me this car would make perfect sense, I live close to my work so it would probably use just the battery all the time.

Now lets talk about people qualified to repair EV vehicles...

[bird72]

Re size..... I remember as a kid going with my brother when he worked on IBM computers that filled large rooms (1966). Probably fit in a laptop today. Ya have to start somewhere.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by SRR

Now lets talk about people qualified to repair EV vehicles...

Thats a solid point. I wonder if you could get in early with a tech certificate for those and make a good living.

Once upon a time being C++ serted, or Cisco certified were big deals. The market always catches up, but if you are right time right place you can write your own ticket.

[ta6point6]

I was also going to mention Street Outlaws is a cool show IMO and I believe it lets the young kids see cool fast cars. I remember as a kid seeing the early funny cars and thinking how fast they were not to mention the cool factor. The Street Outlaws mega cash days has some of the fastest guys in the nation right now. Plus with these newer cars the mechanical and all the computer system controls work side by side. Not mention some of these cars are really nice and have a lot of work put into them

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by dataway

Tom, what's the major problem with storage? Keeping it cold enough? Or at high enough pressure? Or both?

Does hydrogen like to propagate through materials when at high pressure?

In the Nuke field we always had hydrogen misbehaving in some way or another.

Think if the storage problems could be solved ... then direct solar to water electrolysis and you have unlimited hydrogen and oxygen ... just mix them back together and you get your energy, the end result ... you get your water back. Solar power in the truest sense.

Always kind of liked the fact that all power except Nuke is solar. Fossil fuels are hydrocarbons created using solar powered photosynthesis, hydroelectric is water carried on high by solar energy, wind is driven by the air currents created by solar heating, and I guess in the larger picture ... all the elements are created from base hydrogen in the furnace at the center of stars.

NEITHER The Issue is hydrogen can migrate (leak out) thru any known material currently used in gaseous storage in 7 days. That means if you fill the bottle with hydrogen the gas will be gone in 7 days and the leakage was not caused by a "bad valve" but by a storage container that could not keep the hydrogen inside it.

We were filling the Hydrogen Buses on a daily basis from a hydrogen filling station and the truck was coming twice a week to top off the storage tank.
This "Gas Station" was a start from scratch dedicated Hydrogen filling station from a empty lot at the airport type deal. Everything brand new.

We build over 10 of these stations located in the USA and Canada. $X,XXX,XXX to build each station. The Two Governments paid the bill for the Hydrogen Research.

Tom V.

[carcrazy]

I will take a position that is contrary to what many believe. The change will happen far quicker than most people realize. Innovation begets more innovation and the significant challenges will be overcome. Then it will be Katy bar the door! That said, .I don't believe it will pose any significant issue to our "hobby" cars...unless the politicians make it so.