[cgeise]

It seems you have a knack for finding suppliers that dont - or cannt provide what is promised -- ouch

[blueghoast]

Wow that just sucks.


GT.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by cgeise

It seems you have a knack for finding suppliers that dont - or cannt provide what is promised -- ouch

Can any of you guys provide me with a list of suppliers which can deliver on what is promised AND also stand behind their work?

[cgeise]

My comment was not a shot at you - but more a comment at your bad luck - I have been on the "front edge" of paying for the newest stuff before - and it usually bites you in the ass - but not as bad as your deal -- I think every one that even thought of buying some of that stuff should send you 5 bucks as a thank you for showing them what they "missed". Good luck

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

Can any of you guys provide me with a list of suppliers which can deliver on what is promised AND also stand behind their work?

What are your goals at this time?

something like a turn-key Turbo/Engine combination potentially complicated and expensive.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

What are your goals at this time?

something like a turn-key Turbo/Engine combination potentially complicated and expensive.

First, determine what it would take/cost to get what I have now to reliably make the original day 1 target HP goal which was 1600hp running on pump gas. If this is not a realistic goal, race gas or possibly E85 is acceptable. The short list would include cleaning up the valve train, dry deck, reverse cool, o-ring , disassemble and verify all clearances.

[67copperbird]

Ok, I have reviewed this post about 100 times, and have been hesitant about chiming in, but I thought I would give it a shot. Again, only my opinion, also I have no affliation to any supplier, or builder here. I have been following this post as I am intending to use Ram Air V heads on my build. Have you considered working with BES with no middle man? I guess what I am saying here is that there wouldn't be extra hands in the pot so to speak. I am making the assumption from your posts that there may have been times where there was some confusion on what was needed versus what was recommended versus what was purchased (as far as parts). Another source who may be better at supplying you with what you are working towards is Butler. They have a turbo engine, so they know what is required to make theirs last. Best thing about them is they build primarily Pontiac motors (nothing against BES, but when I was into Oldsmobiles, I didn't buy parts from the big box speed shop or have machine done by the local guy who races Chevrolets), Nevertheless I would think at this stage with all the work Langer has had BES perform for him that they would have a handle on clearances, dry deck, and possibly reverse cooling. Don't know how much of the reverse cooling would be needed on a spread exhaust port head though. Honestly Ed I could set here all day and try to give you advice, again all my opinions. I think the main thing I would do is try to find the best place that you are comfortable with and that they make you feel comfortable. Lastly, don't count out someone closer to your location or at least some place you have access to. Then at least then you aren't waiting on pictures taken a day away to rely on what someone is telling you. Sadly, many people have probaly told you all of this already. I do wish you the best of luck with your build.

[pastry_chef]

Butler was a name that came to mind, that is IF they would be willing to take on the project.

These guys have variety of engineered packages for Chevy, Ford and Mopar platforms.
http://www.nelsonracingengines.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u06OysOiZI

maybe just maybe they might consider doing a one off based on Pontiac block....but costs would be naturally higher than their normal stuff.

[67copperbird]

There have been two turbo builds in HPP recently. I think one was a black Lemans or GTO and the other was a second gen F-body. I think one of those may have been referenced in this thread somewhere. May want to see who built them. I would think at this stage to dry-deck the block would be a high cost adder as it may require disassembling the whole thing. I would also think with EFI, motor could tolerate a fair amount of boost with a "wet deck". I think we all keep forgetting this thing has spread exhaust ports. Personally, I think I would look into either rocker shafts or better rockers and valve springs if needed. Then adjust the headers as needed and put a safe tune in it and see what it does.

[Ron H]

Originally Posted by Travis Q

Rod may not see this, so I'll take the liberty of replying to this question......we put 90 passes and over 20 dyno pulls on the same crank, rods, pistons, bearings, rings, head gaskets, valves, springs, rocker arms.....in short, we didn't break anything in nearly three years of racing. Engine-wise, anyway.

We are putting rods and pistons in it now....we hate to spend the money, but there is a finite life for those components and we can't afford to find out what that lifespan really is!

The only components that have been replaced are the spark plugs and one fuel injector which was stuck open when we fired the engine the first time. No lie. Many will say that a 2800 hp engine is a maintenance nightmare, but it hasn't been for us so far. I can say for sure that our low engine speed (never more than 8000-8200) and the fact that we take care of the fuel system and keep an eye on injectors, the fuel pump, etc. makes a huge difference.

Every single pass we have made has been above 2000 hp, some were close to maxed out, others we had power pulled to try to go A to B. But I can say with 100% certainty that we have been 2000hp+ on every single hit. The first dyno pull was 2600 hp.

Wow. You guys rule!!

[Ron H]

Ouch.

I am shocked now that I read this through. Never woulda thunk it.

You have certainly had a bad run. That is alot of near misses, or hits to take.

Stay positive though, your car will be awesome.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by cgeise

My comment was not a shot at you - but more a comment at your bad luck - I have been on the "front edge" of paying for the newest stuff before - and it usually bites you in the ass - but not as bad as your deal -- I think every one that even thought of buying some of that stuff should send you 5 bucks as a thank you for showing them what they "missed". Good luck

100% right with the 5 buck idea!


Sorry to hear about this....


Good luck with the rest of your build....

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

Can any of you guys provide me with a list of suppliers which can deliver on what is promised AND also stand behind their work?

Technosports
Autry Road
Livonia, Michigan
734-261-0060

They have been building Race cars for Road Race applications since the 70s and they today are a prime
supplier of prototype fabrication work for Ford, GM, Chrysler, Borg Warner, and NASCAR.


McLaren Engines Inc
32233 8 MILE RD
Livonia, Michigan, MI 48152-1361
(248) 213-0619

Richard Cole (a Pontiac Guy) has built more racing headers (in Stainless) than Carter has pills. Experience in Trans Am Racing fabrication, Fabricator for many SVO-SVT projects, has built many sets of Turbo Headers for my projects at Ford.

Has also built a lot of custom stainless headers for different Pontiac race cars in the Detroit area. Owns 3 Firebirds.

Neither place is cheap but both organizations do it right and stand behind their work.
Full CNC and Water Jet capabilities as well as CAD capabilities.

So there ARE places that DO have experience in building Racing Stainless Headers for NA and Boosted Applications and they are not learning on your dime.

Tom Vaught

ps Richard also worked for Technosports for several years on the Trans Am fabrication work.

I am really sorry Ed that you got a welder as a header builder, that does not know how to FABRICATE proper headers for Turbo Applications.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by cgeise

It seems you have a knack for finding suppliers that dont - or cannt provide what is promised -- ouch

Just to be clear, Lynn McCarty was responsible for picking the machine shop “BES Racing Engines” and the header fabricator “The Indy Cartel”.

[67copperbird]

Ed, not knowing what conversations you, Lynn, and BES have had,I would think that BES is plenty capable of building a good engine. Now me saying that, if I was doing what you are doing, I wouldn't rule them out, but they wouldn't have been my first chioce for a turbo motor. For most applications they would be a good choice. My concern in your case is now you are stuck with finding someone to make the EFI work, make the headers, etc. then hope it all works together. While if you could have found someone to build your engine start to finish that provides a turnkey turbo motor I think the end result would have been better. Which leads me to ask, has BES tried to work with you on resolving any thing that you feel is inadequate? What were their (BES) thoughts on the rocker studs and threads? If you want you can pm me and tell me.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

Just to be clear, Lynn McCarty was responsible for picking the machine shop “BES Racing Engines” and the header fabricator “The Indy Cartel”.

Just to be clear, Ed, I think that BES Racing Engines only does the finish work on the heads and Lynn has some guy he is partnered with do the initial basic machining somewhere else. (All of the Head Bolt Holes, Deck Surface, Valve Cover Surface, Intake Manifold Mating Surface, Accessory Bracket Hole Machining, Valve Guides, Rocket Studs, etc.)

Tom Vaught

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Just to be clear, Ed, I think that BES Racing Engines only does the finish work on the heads and Lynn has some guy he is partnered with do the initial basic machining somewhere else. (All of the Head Bolt Holes, Deck Surface, Valve Cover Surface, Intake Manifold Mating Surface, Accessory Bracket Hole Machining, Valve Guides, Rocket Studs, etc.)

Tom Vaught

Thanks for the clarification Tom, you’re correct.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by 67copperbird

Ed, not knowing what conversations you, Lynn, and BES have had,I would think that BES is plenty capable of building a good engine. Now me saying that, if I was doing what you are doing, I wouldn't rule them out, but they wouldn't have been my first chioce for a turbo motor. For most applications they would be a good choice. My concern in your case is now you are stuck with finding someone to make the EFI work, make the headers, etc. then hope it all works together. While if you could have found someone to build your engine start to finish that provides a turnkey turbo motor I think the end result would have been better. Which leads me to ask, has BES tried to work with you on resolving any thing that you feel is inadequate? What were their (BES) thoughts on the rocker studs and threads? If you want you can pm me and tell me.

PM sent.

[Tom Vaught]

A lot of people are getting a bad taste in their mouth with a "BES project" when most of the original sins were probably caused at the other (different) shop and so now Tony and his crew are/were trying to fix them as best as they can and the chit is/was all over them. TYPICAL

Tom Vaught

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A lot of people are getting a bad taste in their mouth with a "BES project" when most of the original sins were probably caused at the other (different) shop and so now Tony and his crew are/were trying to fix them as best as they can and the chit is/was all over them. TYPICAL

Tom Vaught

Tom,

Look at the issues raised thus far, which of these would have been caused by the original machine shop besides the rocker stud locations possibly being drilled in the wrong location?

I don’t have a documented list of what machine work BES performed, I do know I personally paid ~13K in machine work alone.
If the engine wasn’t 100% right Tony should have kept it until he was satisfied with it.