[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I would agree with that conclusion, Stan.

For years we had one "non-pontiac" engine at the Norwalk Nationals.
Everyone knows who that was. The Gentleman raced at several "corporate events" so from an appearance perspective it made good sense for him and his touring budget.
The Gentleman never claimed that the engine was anything other than what it was.
Because the gentleman was a true legend, he got a "pass" on the rules.

So where I think Bob is coming from is something like this:

I personally have access to a very good CNC business. If I took that business the prints for one of our Pro Stock blocks and had them make me a block with a 75mm camshaft journals & location, same bore spacing as the Ford Pro Stock Block, same deck height as the Ford Pro Stock Block, put a stroker crankshaft in the block vs the short stroke typically run, added billet Pro Stock design heads, engraved Tom Vaught Racing on the valve covers and came to Norwalk to race, how would I be any different from say John Marcella who is not allowed to race?

Would everyone say I was really setting records with a Ford based engine design vs a Pontiac Engine design?

So I guess there are RULES and there are EXCEPTIONS (depending on who you are).

In the case of the legend, I can live with that deal as He lets everyone know what he is doing. In his case though (for at least one engine) the heads actually were made for Corporate Pontiac engine and sold as a Pontiac Corporate Race Head complete with valid GM part number.

So I also have to say, maybe Bob C has a point there. Where do you draw the line on me using a Ford Head on a Pro Stock Block and calling it a Pontiac?

Tom V.

In the early 60's Mickey Thompson was running and producing hemi heads for Pontiacs. I've never heard anyone say that wasn't a Pontiac. I think if you showed up to Norwalk with an engine that had a Pontiac timing cover, driver's side starter, BOP bell housing pattern that resembled a Pontiac, in a car that was being called a Pontiac and looked like a Pontiac - a lot of us would call it a bad ass modified Pontiac.

I would come up with a more creative name for it if I were you though!

[Tom Vaught]

Mickey never said it was a Pontiac Head, I believe he said it would bolt on a Pontiac Block. He said it was a Mickey Thompson head. His head was based on a 392 Hemi Head.

Don's new Ram Air 5 head is much more of a Ford Tunnel Port head than many would admit. Bore spacing is within a few thousands of an inch between the two blocks.
One Bolt hole in the 10 bolt bolt pattern needs to be moved slightly but if you had a non drilled Head Bolt IA-2 block, I could bolt a stock 427 Ford Tunnel Port head onto a Pontiac Block. PMD Engineering never made a "Split Port" Head. Don's V head is a true version of a "Split Port" Head Ford design feeding one intake valve. The Pushrod passes thru the port boss (vs a tube in the Ford Tunnel Port Design).

But back to the question of why Marcella is not allowed to race with a Chevy designed head and block configuration when another group races with a hemi design.
Ok to call it a Whoopee 5 experimental head but don't imply that it is a Pontiac and has set a PONTIAC RECORD. I think that was Bob's point.

Tom V.

[johnta1]

Ok to call it a Whoopee 5 experimental head but don't imply that it is a Pontiac and has set a PONTIAC RECORD. I think that was Bob's point

Really???

[tom s]

I think if a 55 head fits the block I think its good in my mind.Tom

[Matt Meaney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Mickey never said it was a Pontiac Head, I believe he said it would bolt on a Pontiac Block. He said it was a Mickey Thompson head. His head was based on a 392 Hemi Head.

Don's new Ram Air 5 head is much more of a Ford Tunnel Port head than many would admit. Bore spacing is within a few thousands of an inch between the two blocks.
One Bolt hole in the 10 bolt bolt pattern needs to be moved slightly but if you had a non drilled Head Bolt IA-2 block, I could bolt a stock 427 Ford Tunnel Port head onto a Pontiac Block. PMD Engineering never made a "Split Port" Head. Don's V head is a true version of a "Split Port" Head Ford design feeding one intake valve. The Pushrod passes thru the port boss (vs a tube in the Ford Tunnel Port Design).

But back to the question of why Marcella is not allowed to race with a Chevy designed head and block configuration when another group races with a hemi design.
Ok to call it a Whoopee 5 experimental head but don't imply that it is a Pontiac and has set a PONTIAC RECORD. I think that was Bob's point.

Tom V.

if only I had those few extra bucks, I'd be the only kid on the block with a sohc "Pontiac".

i have to ask, (to anyone) how does the basically chevy rotating assembly a lot of people have in there Pontiac block, affect it being a Pontiac?

[7T2]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

One Bolt hole in the 10 bolt bolt pattern needs to be moved slightly but if you had a non drilled Head Bolt IA-2 block, I could bolt a stock 427 Ford Tunnel Port head onto a Pontiac Block.
Tom V.

wrong again tom, you of all people should know that's not true

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Mickey never said it was a Pontiac Head, I believe he said it would bolt on a Pontiac Block. He said it was a Mickey Thompson head. His head was based on a 392 Hemi Head.

Don's new Ram Air 5 head is much more of a Ford Tunnel Port head than many would admit. Bore spacing is within a few thousands of an inch between the two blocks.
One Bolt hole in the 10 bolt bolt pattern needs to be moved slightly but if you had a non drilled Head Bolt IA-2 block, I could bolt a stock 427 Ford Tunnel Port head onto a Pontiac Block. PMD Engineering never made a "Split Port" Head. Don's V head is a true version of a "Split Port" Head Ford design feeding one intake valve. The Pushrod passes thru the port boss (vs a tube in the Ford Tunnel Port Design).

But back to the question of why Marcella is not allowed to race with a Chevy designed head and block configuration when another group races with a hemi design.
Ok to call it a Whoopee 5 experimental head but don't imply that it is a Pontiac and has set a PONTIAC RECORD. I think that was Bob's point.

Tom V.

Marcella runs a Chevy engine, plain and simple. You can call it Corporate like a many people do, but to me, if a V8 powers Chevy trucks it is a Chevy. That's just the way it's always been. The LS has nothing in common with a Pontiac. The fact that it once came in T/A's and GTO's is no different that 305's and 350's that came in Pontiacs.

At least a "Mountain Motor" Pontiac block, or a hemi head for a Pontiac or some type of stretched Pontiac head design would be based on a Pontiac design, meaning it would share some recognizable Pontiac characteristics.

Pontiac even built some experimental hemi headed engines.

Reading between the lines, I take it you do not consider Jeff Kaufman's 5 second passes to be Pontiac records because he is running the Warp 6 heads?

I guess I just don't understand the predetermined "lines" that cannot be crossed to considered a true Pontiac. No production blocks can be bored 4.400" like aftermarket blocks. No production heads can be made to flow what ported E-heads, KRE, Tiger, etc, etc. can flow. These parts have been optimized and modified from the original design for more power. Why are these real Pontiacs when they do do things that actual real Pontiac parts can't?

[ventura7211]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

The LS has nothing in common with a Pontiac.

If you've ever taken one a part and put it back together, you will find it has as much in common with the Pontiac design as it does with the SBC.

Pontiac:
4 head bolts per cyl.

Separate Valley pan from intake.

Chevy:
Center bolt valve covers (shared only with the last sbcs)
Bell-housing pattern*

*Missing a bolt. You can't take a th-350/400 and converter out of a mid-70s chevy and bolt it up and it work outside of the early iron headed 6.0s.

You will find that the LS shares more in common with fords than it does with GM engines of the past. (Head bolts, oil pump location, thrust location, etc)

GM cast a "sbc" with the olds logo in the side of it, referred to as a "rocket" block. It differs from the traditional sbc in pan rail width (takes special oil pan), deck height and cam location. During this same time period they were casting heads that fit on the SB and BB blocks with "Pontiac" scripts and Arrowheads and stuff. Even Buick got in on the action with a spread port head for the SBC block. All have their little quirks that you can split hairs over what makes them not a SBC/BBC because the design changed from what that division put out new.

Keith Black had his own version of an "oldsmobile" that is often called a "chevy", yet the bottom end resembles a hemi, while the top end resembles a bbc, I think KB calls it a A600 block now (A500 is the 481x style engine IIRC).

No one in the fast classes care whats in the cars of competitors, its all about the ETs and wins, what Sonnys, Fulton, Kaase, Proline, etc want to "brand" their billet creations as is for bleacher debate and fodder.

[Tom Vaught]

Personally I think that if a Stock Timing Cover or a BOP belt drive can be bolted on the front of the engine 99% of the people would not know a "Stretched Block" with Hemi rods and a taller deck height. The Balancers are 3 Bolt on many aftermarket "pontiac" balancers so that is not a identifier either.

That being said, you have to give the KRE Guys a lot of credit for FIXING a lot of the short comings on the Traditional Engine and running the numbers they do.

Tom V.

[Dragncar]

If someone built the 1970 SOHC Hemi 427 Pontiac it would be the answer. Some say it never ran. I talked to a guy who said he knew of 2 them that did.
But... that engine design was way before its time. And Ford took it and ran with it (4.6 mod engine)
That 70 engine was a Pontiac. RAV crank, same turned down RAV exhaust, front sideways distributor, canted valves, hemi head, SOHC design (that we could turn into a DOHC design), main caps one piece design, giant girdle, .
If PMD themselves could make even a mock up of this engine ( I believe some ran) and call it a Pontiac who are "we" to say if you bend this rule or that rule its not a "Pontiac".
Clearly the folks who ran PMD thought different than those of you who think if you change any of the original parameters are changed its not a "Pontiac".
Do what you want to it, if its "looks" like a Pontiac to the vast majority then let them think just that. Just my opinion.
I agree with Mr Quinton. Would love to hit the lottery and build the SOHC hemi Pontiac.

[GTOGEORGE]

It's like this.........PONTIAC BLOCK-if you can bolt a stock Pontiac head and crank into it. PONTIAC HEAD-if it bolts to a Pontiac Block without any mods.
You can't just make an engine and call it a Pontiac.............Pontiac only made one block (not counting the 301 block........2 If you count that. So that's it, Pontiac died because of Politics and Chevy we have to live with what we have. Most (I'm just being general) Pontiac racers are cheap they'll put thousands of dollar worth of turbos, supercargers, nitrous on top but will try to run a stock block because an aftermarket block is to expensive? So a new wammer jammer stretched heavy duty block would be expensive plus it would need a new crank, heads, etc......... Only a very few would buy one those one of a kind parts and then again Pontiac didn't build it because there is no more Pontiac........sad!!


George

[BruceWilkie]

I look at the last Pontiac v8 and see how it evolved over the years and wonder how it would have evolved..I too like the sohc 427 and many of the ideas incorporated. Keeping in mind the internal/external politics of the day its understandable why it never got produced.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

It's like this.........PONTIAC BLOCK-if you can bolt a stock Pontiac head and crank into it. PONTIAC HEAD-if it bolts to a Pontiac Block without any mods.
You can't just make an engine and call it a Pontiac.............Pontiac only made one block (not counting the 301 block........2 If you count that. So that's it, Pontiac died because of Politics and Chevy we have to live with what we have. Most (I'm just being general) Pontiac racers are cheap they'll put thousands of dollar worth of turbos, supercargers, nitrous on top but will try to run a stock block because an aftermarket block is to expensive? So a new wammer jammer stretched heavy duty block would be expensive plus it would need a new crank, heads, etc......... Only a very few would buy one those one of a kind parts and then again Pontiac didn't build it because there is no more Pontiac........sad!!

George

Great Post George, Lot of Truth There.

Tom V.

[warriors revenge]

wonder what people consider the X400?

[Robert C.]

When racing for money at any event and we are talking about good money and the Rules state a Brand of motor, let’s say Chevy at a Chevy event or Pontiac. And some one brings in a billet aluminum motor, no water jacket on any part, and no part resembles a Chevy 454 or like motor. And the claim it is a Chevy. We now have to take in what modifications that are done to build that Bad Ass motor. Course it will not look like a Chevy. You modify it to make the power and hold together to get the performance need to win.

But at what point is the modify motor no longer a Chevy or Pontiac or Ford. It is an experimental motor or a new brand or casting call a Merlin motor. Now rules at an event are made to say that brand Casting is ok to run in that event so everyone is equal to have the chance to win that big bag of money. The promotor makes a rule and everyone has the rules and the same chance to compete at the same level. Correct?

Yes we can Bore a IA II block to 5 inch bore centers too. Yes we can raise the cam and the diameter of the camshaft to greater lift and duration too. Yes we can move the lifter bores so the push rods are straighter. Yes we can add the 8 more bolts holes per side that I designed in to our block and heads too. Yes we can take a Hemi Crankshaft in the bottom end and connect Hemi Rods to it and much more. All these things are changes that Pontiac division did not have as an engineering design in a 455 Pontiac block design. If we did offer these changes will the Pontiac community welcome it as a Pontiac when only 2 people can afford the money to make that happen. Is it a Pontiac or a experimental motor . Does it qualify as the fastest Pontiac motor?

Like one post above stated a Merlin block design can take any brand head. Would a participant with this block be allowed to run and take the winning money at our event because he had a sticker that said Pontiac on the valve cover?

So we as a group need to make up our minds that it is ok to run a motor that is stretch out of normal parameters of a stock factory block like 5 inch bore centers, longer crankshaft, longer cam, more head bolts, different valve locations. Because the builder is making a claim that it is a Chevy, Ford, Pontiac, Buick by their rules not by the event rules. Some checks and Balances need to be in place so everyone can play fair. Since Pontiac engineering is long gone we as a group are now the Pontiac engineers trying carry this brand to the next level. We can’t stay in the 50ies or 60ies or 70ies forever. We want to go faster, but we all want to be a Pontiac Enthusiast. But we can’t just let things get so out of hands that we call anything that pull the line and call it a Pontiac motor. We need to define what we will as a group and accept as a Pontiac so everyone plays fair. I feel (not AP) should have a vote post with what we as a group will now change and still call it a Pontiac.

I think the KRE performance at Norwalk was a Great accomplishment 5.98 ¼ mile is a great. Cheers to them.

[S/st 54]

Bob Great question and idea. Just a thought,but did you guys go pit to pit in Norwalk and ask that question? Ask the racer/potential customer what they thought?
That's one great thing about the Tri-Power nationals you get a very very large majority of Pontiac racers from accross the country in one spot.A manufacturer could get some opinions from the guys/and gals that are actually out there spending there money beating on there stuff.




My 2cents I'm torn. I am one that has always wanted more cubic inches from our PONTIACS! But after reading GreatGTO's post about the youth movement needed to help PONTIACS survive is the truth.
Does anyone know what the age demographic was at Norwalk?
How many younger kids (16-30 yrs old)were there racing?

How many of the baby boomers were there racing that are about to be on fixed income once they retire?

[azbirds]

I would like to see a short deck block like the 301, that has more beef to it. I would also run a stretched version, as long as it has the features of a traditional Pontiac. Most people don't even realize We had a different engine then the other GM brands. I see this every Saturday night when I open the hood of my 68 Firebird at the local cruise.

[Robert C.]

We make a 9.25 deck now.

We have sold 10 in the past year or so.

Just call we have the molds done.

Where have you been. Ha ha just kidding.

[Robert C.]

It would take a week to walk the event and talk to everyone. And everyone would have there 2 cents to add. I am ADHD and could not last a hour doing this.

When something is put in writing and not just word of mouth, it has more value. When it is on paper you can express yourself better so others can think of your feelings of how they would too like the next 10 years to be. With this in mind we need to bring younger racers to the Pontiac Brand we need to change. We need to offer something that is Bigger, Better, Faster, or just sit back and die. Us older guys will be gone in 20 years or less. Who will carry the flag? If we don’t move soon in to the to the 2100 first century and make the changes that will promote our hobby we will all end up slowly going else where.

People like riding the fastest horse available. If we up scale the Pontiac parameters to a larger window we could run with the Hemi, Fords, Chevys. The NHRA would have to allow our products to compete because they will see we have stuck together and call our products a Pontiac. But limits must be kept to where everyone is comfortable with the new changes. We could standardize the changes and other vendors can have part numbers to accept the NEW Pontiac motor.

When Frank G. and I started Allpontiac 12 years ago we took on the Indian Adventures engine castings from Dick Dulow because we wanted a stronger block. We took Pontiac from a hobby to the next level an Industry with the success of the IA II block. We gave everyone the proper base to go to the next level. People had new ideas and new heads and intakes came around, Forge crankshafts were brought back to our Industry. New cams were developed to run faster.

Just my thoughts.

[3fastgtos]

Not that anyone asked but here's my two cents. I'm sure everyone will think I'm biased because my engine falls into my beliefs of what a Pontiac is. But that's why I built it within my guidelines.
You can alter the deck height but not the bore center. A factory crank and heads need to bolt onto the block. A factory timing cover needs to be able to bolt to it also? Don't care about cam size, pistons, rods. These items are altered for strength and reliability.
The valve layout in the heads also should resemble the factory layout. Inline and either eiieeiie or eieiieie.
The guys at the top of the field in the pro classes are not "purists", they run a variant of a brand. The owner of the Promod car that I drive says he runs a Brad 5 Hemi, never once has he said that he runs a Chrysler, Plymouth, or Dodge.
If some guys want to reinvent the wheel and build a 960" Pontiac variant with splayed valve heads and run it in Promod then more power to them. But it should disqualify them from the Pontiac record books. Or maybe have a purist class and an outlaw class.

Steve Dale