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#41
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Toluene Mixture Percentages
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I see your mixture percentages and I would like to verify that I am reading you right so if you want to attain an octane rating of 98.6% on a 30% mixture, what is the ratio of premium pump gas (91 octane) in gallons (all California gas except E-85 is E-10 I believe) to Toluene in gallons or ounces? I am asking because currently I have 100 octane gas in my GTO. Do you mean 3 gallons of Toluene per 10 gallons of 91 or 92 octane gas for a 30% mixture? The reason I am asking is because if I can get Toluene it may be cheaper for me than the $10 a gallon I am paying for 100 octane pump gas. Carousel72TRed |
#42
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I will try to answer a few questions here. First I dealt with the "cans of Boost" was on a race car engine. I had the engine oil tested semi locally and found they did some octane testing
with one of the approved methods. Originally this was to see if Mobil 1 could be filtered and reused in an engine with same performance. Gasoline now, like oils, have a lot of additives for cleaning and efficiency, and profit. Toluene is a by product of the gasoline refinement process and is In Gasoline. When Lead was taken out, they started to use other "fillers", some lead substitutes, to cool the ever increasing temperature of the exhaust valve and seat. Later still MTBE was used. This kept the fuels density in check and burned up completely in an engine. The Density of the fuel has a lot to do with the amount of energy is can produce in an controlled explosion. Higher Octane SLOWS down the time to Combust the fuel, However since alcohol evaporates, and ignites at a lower temp, pressure than gasoline, burns hotter, but has little density it can confuse the issue some. Lets address the racing fuel as an additive. I agree with what they say it can do. It likely has little cleaning agents, and has enough density and flame retarders to boost octane. To easily prove the point, lets look at Sun Oil Company marketing.. So the race gas blend has Extremely low solubility, and has a stabilized mix of hydrocarbons in a dense solution that burns slower and allows you to get more power out of the burn. Sun Oil Company ONLY had 2 Fuel tanks at each gas station. In fact, today, its the same at all filling stations for the most part. They used low grade and middle grade gas blending to make the higher octane fuel and all the "blends" in between. While that fuel was pretty much Pre fuel injection, The blending Still happens, at Wawa, or Shell, or Mobil.. etc. There is a company, I believe its "MG" that sells a product that advertises they can make water burn. I was shocked to see a rep do this one day at a Napa store, and so I asked if I could do the "burn" myself with my own water bottle. I was shocked, but not blown away with the alcohol and toluene affect on water. Toluene, as it stands, in a Gallon container is 114 Octane with the R+M/2 method. The mixing percentages I listed earlier were done a while back ( I think it was 1999 with gas that had no alcohol, but did have MTBE . last year I put a quart of Toluene in 20 gallons of 89 octane ( no alcohol fuel from Marina, @$2.75 a gallon) and tested it was 91.2 Ocatne. I have found that I can buy Toluene at a hardware store, but have to buy a case now. Home chepo used to carry it. Since I usually run 87 octane in my HD truck, when I heavy tow I add a quart to a tankful ( 26 gal) Did it work?> One way to tell is that the engine temp runs hotter, even with alcohol making it hotter, still hotter at around 220. Not Ideal, but I have a big separate trans cooler. I dont hesitate to add to the pump gas if needed, and use it in my 455HO, even with only stock CR. Mixing Toluene with "E-10" and trying to nail down the octane exactly will be tough unless tested. Even tested its going to be off as the "octane" provided by alcohol is weak. It cannot hurt a carburated engine.
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"The Future Belongs to those who are STILL Willing to get their Hands Dirty" .. my Grandfather Last edited by Formulabruce; 11-04-2021 at 07:19 PM. |
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#43
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Route 12 at the Mobil border Illinois / Wisconsin
Super unleaded only Most places in the third northern part of Wisconsin carry super unleaded no ethanol premium only and Everywhere in the UP of Michigan that’s all they run in my snowmobile. I bring it home for the generator also just in case every time I go The only gas station I’ve ever seen that sells regular no ethanol gas is an Clintonville Wisconsin On route 45 some small no-name gas station never stop there
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74 Formula Below motor destroyed last fall 469, 6X-4's, 72 Intake, Ramair Manifolds. 3 inch exhaust with x-pipe Custom Roller Cam, 1.52 Roller Rockers Quadrajet done by Cliff 3:42 gears 12.061 @ 110.74 12.092 @ 112.43 12.128 @ 111.71 New motor 461 stroker Edelbrock 87 cc dport heads Performer RPM Same Ram Air manifolds, and quadrajet Results will be posted after the track |
#44
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__________________
"The Future Belongs to those who are STILL Willing to get their Hands Dirty" .. my Grandfather |
#45
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Are those perhaps untaxed or low-taxed reservation prices?
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Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) ... or has a Pontiac born the same year as Jim Wangers? (1926} |
#46
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Or 1 QT Toluene to 1 Gal of gas? If the vehicle is running hotter after adding the toluene, the fuel mixture is probably too lean. If it has a modern EFI Flex fuel type setup, I would think it should be able to compensate, though. Would you have checked the specific gravity of the gas before addition and after?
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John Wallace - johnta1 Pontiac Power RULES !!! www.wallaceracing.com Winner of Top Class at Pontiac Nationals, 2004 Cordova Winner of Quick 16 At Ames 2004 Pontiac Tripower Nats KRE's MR-1 - 1st 5 second Pontiac block ever! "Every man has a right to his own opinion, but no man has a right to be wrong in his facts." "People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." – Socrates |
#47
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Bottom line adding volatile density to fuel will be a true help to performance in a higher cr engine. Modern engines, UNLESS flex fuel, can't tell. They only know the Oxygen amount and the A/F ratio. My HD was built before E-10 was made, and just that fuel alone makes the engine work harder, and because of that, run Hotter. This affects fuel economy as well. ALCOHOL and associated water it absorbs is Hard on fuel lines, seals, and metals.
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"The Future Belongs to those who are STILL Willing to get their Hands Dirty" .. my Grandfather |
#48
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Ethanol free gas shortage
Hi Formulabruce,
I really appreciate the information you have provided. I remember those Sunoco pumps back in the day. Could you tell me that as a general rule of thumb 1 quart of Toluene to 10 gallons of 91 octane gas would raise the octane from 91 to 95? And 2 quarts per 10 gallons would raise it from 91 to 99-100? If I find somewhere that still sells Toluene that is probably where I would start at as far as adding. Carousel72TRed |
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#49
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CarouselRed, have you cked the cost of Tolene over the last few years?
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Buzzards gotta eat... same as worms. |
#50
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Carousel72TRed |
#51
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Toluene was/is sold as a paint thinner. I think Home cheapo sells another similar product but its not Toluene.
The price has gone up due to lower demand, but I found the best way to buy is a case of gallon containers. It was up at 13 a gallon last year. California? Who really knows.... On the "Blending". Its hard to get an exact octane number as alcohol is a "False positive" when it comes to the Octane we are looking for. This would require some testing at STP ( for gas , adjusted specs are "calculated" at 60 degrees.) Alcohol is much less dense than Gasoline and changes state at a lower temp than Gasoline, making even the "Standard Temp and Pressure" questionable. I will check my contacts and see if I can still get this testing done with E10. They create BTU and measure it as part of the Caloric and octane rating they come up with. So, yeah, they Burn it , and then do it under pressure.
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"The Future Belongs to those who are STILL Willing to get their Hands Dirty" .. my Grandfather |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Formulabruce For This Useful Post: | ||
#52
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There is a threshold where adding toluene does not do much, ESP in heavily enhanced unleaded fuel. My brother ordered a 55 gal drum of toluene in 93(?) or whereabouts when he was mgr of race fuel, chemicals, & lubes for what was large oil company & a multi state Sunoco Race fuels distributor. That toluene was being hand blended into Sunoco Maximal for a local heavy hitters big nitrous ElCamino. We're talking early 405 street insanity! Purple & Red were their big seller race fuels, transport truck back & forth to PA every week. Was fortunate to be there numerous times when the linesvwere jetted from the transport trailer Maximal was shipped to them in a drum, a very seldom deal, this is what pro stock engines run. Can remember speaking w my brother on numerous occasions about their sending out for lab analysis on certain fuels. Also remember adding the Tolulene made the Maximal blend "heavy" / would not pass NHRA fuel ck, but that didn't matter.
Have a feeling that today to buy a gal of freshly mfg Tolulene under $10 a gal, better have a chemical license & be ready to ship in a 55 gal drum = not very handy. |
#53
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Carousel72TRed |
#54
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Did some quick research ... in general it looks like Toluene is available in gallons from ACE Hardware and Sherwin Williams paint stores ... might vary by location though. $23 a gallon at ACE ... but at about 1/2 gallon per tank that's not bad at all.
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The Following User Says Thank You to dataway For This Useful Post: | ||
#55
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You can get a better deal buying a case , not sure if they would charge shipping, which is obviously HAZMAT UPS GROUND.
Backing up to what OPH said; He is 100% Spot on. Octane lets temp build higher before explosion occurs, causing a more powerful burst. You can only slow it to a certain point before its "heavy" and doesn't help anything . Highly doubt that would happen with a small home brew but is more apt to happen with non alcohol fuels as you get more octane. Really 110 is about max usable. If that number was higher, airplanes would be using it.
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"The Future Belongs to those who are STILL Willing to get their Hands Dirty" .. my Grandfather |
The Following User Says Thank You to Formulabruce For This Useful Post: | ||
#56
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Ethanol free gas shortage
Thank You Dataway,
I will check it out and the next time I go to Ace I get a gallon and first try a quart with 10 gallons of E-10 91 octane unleaded gas. I believe this will raise the octane to approximately 95 from 91. I do not want to put too much in for starters. And I guess the best way to see if a quart is enough is try it out and see if my car knocks and pings when I get on it. Carousel72TRed |
#57
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Quote:
__________________
"The Future Belongs to those who are STILL Willing to get their Hands Dirty" .. my Grandfather |
The Following User Says Thank You to Formulabruce For This Useful Post: | ||
#58
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Quote:
Rich |
#59
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Ethanol free gas shortage
Sounds like I better get my temp. gauge fixed before I start mixing toluene and gas. I can tell you the 100 octane unleaded pump gas I've been getting lately from the only station in the area that sells it has my car running better than it has in many years.
Carousel72TRed |
#60
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fwiw - Walmart shows it in a Case (4 single gallons , Redi-Strip brand ) for $100 . Maybe they could get it to you .. somehow .... accidentally or whatever. |
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