[70RamAirIIITA]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

I do believe you are up to it. You're asking good questions and getting good advice.
My philosophy on this kind of stuff is "The worst I can do is f it up..and it's already f'd up!"
Still, it can be a little intimidating leading up to it...but once you start pulling that old rusty crap off your car, it really feels good.

I'm a true believer in that the only bad or stupid questions are the ones that aren't asked. As embarassed as I was to post the pictures, I am so glad I did, rather than stew in my own little rotted sheet metal hell and try to figure this thing out by myself. And then look where I'd be; drilling out tail panels and hacking up a rare Esprit.........

It's funny you should mention your philosphy; I was thinking the same thing. So I cut the rot away and have half a TA; what's the difference between having half of a TA compared to the current sorry rust bucket excuse for a TA it is now? And you're right; what's there to f up? It's already f'ed up!

400 4spd.: Thanks for the advise on using the scissor jacks; I was thinking about that as well, lining up everything to get it flush and true. I can greatly see how making the exact measurements will make all the difference - it's like being behind one of those cars with bent frames; the front of the car is pointed into the next lane and the rear is pointing straight ahead!

BTW, the doors, as rusty as they are, fit and close perfectly - they're about the only perfect thing on the car!

[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by 70RamAirIIITA

I'm sure lesser men would pass on doing this type of work, but not me; I'm up to the task at hand. I wonder how many thousands of dollars a body shop would charge to do this type of repair.......Maybe a rich man could farm it out, but I ain't rich! Plus, I'll have the satisfaction of knowing I did the repair myself, which will bring a tremendous feeling of accomplishment!

we had a 68 chevelle cut apart to nothing several years ago and an old boy came in to bs. he made the following comment.

only idiots or artists would cut a car that far down and be able to put it back together and make it right. the jury's still out on what you boys are!


take your time and it'll go back together.

it's only sheetmetal and glass and they didn't make just one of them.

mike

[70RamAirIIITA]

I did more research. I came across an auto body site where they showed photos of short clip repair jobs on late model vehicles. They basically said if you short clip a car and cut through the frame and weld another clip onto the car, it becomes unsafe because you have changed the integrity of the frame. Cars that have had shortclipping done are designated salvage vehicles by insurance companies, and the last thing I want is to have the TA tagged with a salvage title. If that were the case, I'd be better off turning the Esprit into a TA clone.

I also can't see having to chop the entire back of the car off when the 1/4's and the rest of the trunk (besides the pan) are pretty decent. Granted, the 1/4's will need some patching, but it's not like the entire rear section from the rear window back is crumbling from rust. I know it will take longer to repair the rusted areas than doing a short clip, but so be it.

Also, I really don't want to cut the frame and throw off the integrity of the frame. I would much rather either drill out the tail section at the spot welds or cut the section at the 1/4's about 6-8" up, since about 6" of the top rear portion of the trunk channel is rotted out as well.

[Greg Reid]

Maybe I'm thinking of it wrongly....but I didn't think anyone was expecting you to cut through the frame...just the floor and roof at the rear of the door opening.
I'm sure you're probably aware of this....but just in case... The F bodies don't have a traditional full frame. It's divided into sub-assemblies made up of a front subframe and two rear framerails.

[rtanner]

I seriously agree keep that esprit a complete car. i know its a little diffeent but i have 78 esprit that someone already cut the drivers quarter off. the trunk s good i would be glad to cut it out for you.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

Maybe I'm thinking of it wrongly....but I didn't think anyone was expecting you to cut through the frame...just the floor and roof at the rear of the door opening.
I'm sure you're probably aware of this....but just in case... The F bodies don't have a traditional full frame. It's divided into sub-assemblies made up of a front subframe and two rear framerails.

Thanks for clearing that up for me Greg, I was under the impression that I pretty much had to cut the entire car in half. I was aware of the separate sub frame and frame rails I'm still uncertain about the cutting points for the short clip; I think the first thing I need to do is the the car in the air on some jack stands to get a better idea of what we're talking about.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Originally Posted by rtanner

I seriously agree keep that esprit a complete car. i know its a little diffeent but i have 78 esprit that someone already cut the drivers quarter off. the trunk s good i would be glad to cut it out for you.

I think the trunk is the same for 70-81's; that would be great if the section of the trunk channel I need is the same on your Esprit as it is on my TA. Just getting the trunk channel piece would be a great help; how much would you want for it?

I think you can get a good idea of how much I need by the photos posted in the beginning of the thread; it's probably about 8" up both sides of the trunk channel as well as the entire back section going across as well. Thanks for offering, I appreciate it. Now if only I could track down the correct tail section and rear lower valance before I change my mind again and start hacking away at the Esprit........

[Greg Reid]

Originally Posted by 70RamAirIIITA

Thanks for clearing that up for me Greg, I was under the impression that I pretty much had to cut the entire car in half. I was aware of the separate sub frame and frame rails I'm still uncertain about the cutting points for the short clip; I think the first thing I need to do is the the car in the air on some jack stands to get a better idea of what we're talking about.

Well, I'm not qualified to completley clear it up. I'd get more info from Mike or Steve (aka 400 4spd) first. I have personally talked to Steve on the phone about a body and fender problem I was having and he was very helpful. Suggested some simple things that I'd have never come up with on my own so I was able to quickly resolve some problems I'd been trying to think my way past for months.
I'd suggest PM'ing one or both of those guys and find out exactly what's needed and where it's needed.
I would guess...You'd support the car with the scissor jacks Steve suggested, then remove the differential and everything attached to it, then gas tank framerails, etc. make it all as light and uncluttered as possible....Then measure, measure, measure and once again before cutting anything. I'd cut the rusty car first so if you make any mistakes, it's on the car that's already screwed up. Try to stick to factory lines so what you cut on the donor will match exactly.
But, first, I'd definitely talk to someone in the know. Experience is your best friend and these guys have plenty.

[niceta]

thought you would have seen this. It doesn't look perfect from the pics but better than your TA's for sure.
Oh by the way it is not mine as you can see from the location
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/70-73...em320210575574

[mike nixon]

to short clip that car you'll be removing the rear section of the car by cutting thru the 1/4's just below the lead seams and thru the floor in front of the frame rails and either around the rockers or thru them. personally i'd cut thru them.

if you do this correctly your structural integrity of the car will remain intact. i still reccomend tying the subframes together. firebird were cheap cars to begin with that flexed a LOT in normal driving. anything you can do to stiffen one will be a great improvement over stock and will improve the structure.

mike

[70RamAirIIITA]

Well thanks for all of the info; after the brain farts subsided it finally dawned on me about where to make the cuts. Cutting through the 1/4's below the lead seams and through the back window takes care of the upper section; cutting through the floors and rockers takes care of the lower section and - Walla - it's the tale (tail) of two TA's.
It appears to be A LOT less work than having to drill out all of the sections and welding in replacements.

Nice TA: I did see that panel on eBay, I can't believe it sold for that much, it's not even it that good of shape. BTW, I just put a deposit on a '73 Formula 350 shell that I located through Craig's List in San Diego for - get this - $200. $200, a trailer rental and a tank of gas - not bad...It's not a rolling chassis, just the shell with doors. The guy told me it has a very clean tail section; he told me the passenger 1/4 was replaced with a panel from Year One and wasn't finished. Should be interesting to see it in person. I'll be picking it up within the next couple of weeks.

[mike nixon]

i've got to ask since you live in cali, where did you drag that rusty mess of a bird out of? it looks like it was a beach car or sat under a pine tree forever.

i'm not ripping on your car as i've fixed cars like that and probably will again. it's not what i think of commonly as a cali car.

mike

[x-bird2]

just to clarify, salvage or reconstructed titles apply to cars that were wrecked beyond repairable value and are write-offs insurance wise. shops--like my brother's, buy them as rebuildables with low mileage for resale in markets where used cars are king and a low mile r-title or s-title can be offered well below book but still make the shop money during slow times. i have 100,000 miles on a 95 Z-71 that was rolled at 5,000 miles. it's still tighter and more rattle free than most new ones because of his meticulous nature in not only repairing the damage, but even taking care of factory deficiencies. of course, some rebuilders are just hack jobs too, buyer beware in that market!
what you do to restore this car has nothing to do with its title status sicne it's not going through insurance and your not attempting to swap a vin over to a complete shell. likewise, a clipped car doesn't always necessitate a salvage or r-title if it's value is above and the cost of the repair are below the insurers "total out" values.
honestly, when it comes to your car, i would attach the new quarters at the original seams, the floor pan at the seams and the rockers at the front or rear seam. there is a reason quality shops fastidiously drill out all the original mig-points on clips--and usually try to not drill through the part to be re-used (when i did it for a living, i never used a drill, i always ground off the metal of the weld on the panel portion to be discarded and tried not to even break into the metal on the clip to be used at all)--so they can be attached as original panels were and maintain the integrity of the crumple zones and overall structural integrity. adding another butt-welded or flanged and spot-welded seam where there wasn't one originally is venturing into unknown territory integrity wise.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Originally Posted by mike nixon

i've got to ask since you live in cali, where did you drag that rusty mess of a bird out of? it looks like it was a beach car or sat under a pine tree forever.

i'm not ripping on your car as i've fixed cars like that and probably will again. it's not what i think of commonly as a cali car.

mike

Hey Mike,

Bought her in Indiana sight-unseen (except for photos which did not disclose the extent of the damage to the tail). She's a 4-speed Norwood car originally purchased in PA, worked her way through Alabama and Georgia (and got pimped out somewhere along the way) and ended up in Indiana where I bought her and dragged her home, tail between her legs and everything. So no, she's not a Calie car, although she is now and has been in my garage protected from the elements for the past year. Some might not think she's worth saving, but I do, and I will.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Originally Posted by x-bird2

just to clarify, salvage or reconstructed titles apply to cars that were wrecked beyond repairable value and are write-offs insurance wise. shops--like my brother's, buy them as rebuildables with low mileage for resale in markets where used cars are king and a low mile r-title or s-title can be offered well below book but still make the shop money during slow times. i have 100,000 miles on a 95 Z-71 that was rolled at 5,000 miles. it's still tighter and more rattle free than most new ones because of his meticulous nature in not only repairing the damage, but even taking care of factory deficiencies. of course, some rebuilders are just hack jobs too, buyer beware in that market!
what you do to restore this car has nothing to do with its title status sicne it's not going through insurance and your not attempting to swap a vin over to a complete shell. likewise, a clipped car doesn't always necessitate a salvage or r-title if it's value is above and the cost of the repair are below the insurers "total out" values.
honestly, when it comes to your car, i would attach the new quarters at the original seams, the floor pan at the seams and the rockers at the front or rear seam. there is a reason quality shops fastidiously drill out all the original mig-points on clips--and usually try to not drill through the part to be re-used (when i did it for a living, i never used a drill, i always ground off the metal of the weld on the panel portion to be discarded and tried not to even break into the metal on the clip to be used at all)--so they can be attached as original panels were and maintain the integrity of the crumple zones and overall structural integrity. adding another butt-welded or flanged and spot-welded seam where there wasn't one originally is venturing into unknown territory integrity wise.

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I have decided against shortclipping her and I'm going to be replacing panels. As much as I can appreciate the time saved doing a short clip on her, I don't feel comfortable doing what is essentially chopping her in two. See my next post for the donor I picked up last week that I'll be using A LOT of patches/panels from.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Went down to San Diego last weekend to pick up my $200 donor I found on Craigslist. I saw no photos of it before hand, just going off what the guy (Ross, very nice guy) had told me over the phone. The donor shell is a '73 Lucy Blue Formula 350 which someone for some unknown reason decided they wanted to paint white. The left 1/4 is a Year One replacment panel; the shell also came with two very nice doors that I'll be using to replace the rusted-through doors on my TA. I still can't get over how nice the tail section is. This is a Norwood Formula that found it's way out West...







Here's a photo of the original Lucy Blue in the door jamb; since my TA doesn't have the original engine/tranny, I'll be painting her this color - not a nicer color in the world...



She's also going to have a 600 +/- hp Vortech-supercharged 400/428 stroker with a Tremec 5-speed manual tranny.

[70RamAirIIITA]

Well, with 24V Bosch drill, spot weld bit, hack saw, tin snips, vice grips, mini sledge, chisel and long screwdriver at the ready, I finally started on hacking away at the tail panel a few weekends ago. Working two jobs and keeping my wife happy doesn't leave me much time to work on the TA, so I mostly end up working on the TA on nights when my wife's at work.

I cut the last piece of the tail section off where the trunk latch was tonight; what remains is shown in the photos, including the infamous inner lower valance. This is the piece that attaches to the trunk pan and provides the support for the lower outer valance to be welded to. I found that most of the spot welds on the tail section are around the fuel tank extension of the trunk pan, I'm thinking because of all the abuse that section takes from the trunk closing on it. It seemed like it was a continuous bead from side to side. If I had just chopped the tail section off instead of drilling out the spot welds, I would've never know how reinforced this area needs to be.

The inner valance is toast as well; I'll be using the piece from the parts car. The back of the left 1/4 has some rot in it; to what extent I'll investigate once the trunk pan is out. Next up to drill out is the inner valance, then the trunk pan. Thought I'd post some photos in case anyone else needs to do this. I'm thinking about looking into buying a high-speed drill; my Bosch does a good job but it's not the fastest thing...

[Pontiac_Defender]

Keep up the good work!

[70RamAirIIITA]

Thanks Pontiac Defender, I appreciate it. What's funny is before I started working on it, I used to dream about driving the car when it's finished; now I dream about what section I'm going to be working on next - how weird is that?

[cnc]

lookin good you will really appreciate the car more knowing you did all this work yourself keep us posted...Chris