[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Everyone has an opinion.............but about 1/2 sec. worth.

.................and we're off!


GTO George

what does it weigh?

[GTOGEORGE]

Tom,
All you are trying to to is start sh_t .................i never threw any rocks I have no idea what you are talking about. I asked why Butlers car had to take power out to get down the track as opposed to cars like Jegs Pro Mod, you answered the question........good enough for me. I didn't know Butlers car didn't have a current chassie in it............case closed. As for the 1/2 second comment I answered Scotts question, he asked it. No rocks anywhere, BUDDY. My car cost me $7,000 roller. I'm thinking Butlers is a TAD more then that...........GOSH I hope so.


GTO George

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by Jim Zeek

what does it weigh?

You will never get an answer on that one Jim. I can tell you that that car was built to be under 1800lbs race ready without drive for its original owner according to the builder.

[GTOGEORGE]

Zeek your killing me........it probably weighs less then Franks. Of course my buddy has a tube chassie S/P Vega with a steel body and a 555 ci engine that only weighs 2100 lbs. I'm jealous!!


GTO George

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Tom,
All you are trying to to is start sh_t .................i never threw any rocks I have no idea what you are talking about. I asked why Butlers car had to take power out to get down the track as opposed to cars like Jegs Pro Mod, you answered the question........good enough for me. I didn't know Butlers car didn't have a current chassie in it............case closed. As for the 1/2 second comment I answered Scotts question, he asked it. No rocks anywhere, BUDDY. My car cost me $7,000 roller. I'm thinking Butlers is a TAD more then that...........GOSH I hope so.


GTO George

Damn George...what did you have to do to get the car to cert to 7.50? You got a good deal at 7k! Ill give you 10k for it today..

[GTOGEORGE]

Scott......I don't think so, the chassie is certed for 7.50 but it's out dated, mild steel and is over 25 years old.


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Tom,
All you are trying to to is start sh_t .................i never threw any rocks I have no idea what you are talking about. I asked why Butlers car had to take power out to get down the track as opposed to cars like Jegs Pro Mod, you answered the question........good enough for me. I didn't know Butlers car didn't have a current chassie in it............case closed. As for the 1/2 second comment I answered Scotts question, he asked it. No rocks anywhere, BUDDY. My car cost me $7,000 roller. I'm thinking Butlers is a TAD more then that...........GOSH I hope so. GTO George

George, All is Good!

I think when the Butler/Quillen team destroyed their Rear Suspension/Axle 2 years ago and could not run, that repair deal alone set them personally back about 10K+. I believe Travis and Rodney still do 95% of the work on the car and its expenses.

The Butlers have always had the Power with the T-91 Turbos, 2800+ Hp. The chassis has always been the key item even from the early days when Willi (Jim Butler's brother) was building the previous tube chassis for their 9 & 8 second cars on 4x8 sheets of plywood and using 2x4s to hold the jigs together.

Still I wish Bill M the best with his Dillinger Chassis or the KRE guys with the Pro Stock car.

Tom Vaught.

Tom Vaught

[cgeise]

I dont know where to start here - first there is a huge difference in a N/A car and a Turbo car getting it to stay hooked and keep it that way -- and not rattle tires. even the big H/P NA cars take timing out at the start to calm them down. Pulling timing on a turbo car can help spool it up - My car will run great just about anywhere UNTIL I start pushing it faster than 6.70 -- we have not found the magic set up yet. Trust me, at these levels is as much about getting it to the ground as it is making it to begin with.

[LiL Jack]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

He hasnt been able to use all the power he already has...why would he add more? In fact you might want to raise the exhaust ports on your heads Jack...There is power to be found there. Should take quite a bit of heat source away from the center head bolt as well as reduce heat to the outboard end head bolts. No one in prostock is lowering their exhaust ports or adding droop snoots... Bruce Driggers picked up notably going from std location to cut off exhaust.

Didn't they change the cam in it too?

It hard to believe that cutting a little bit off the exhaust ports picked it up any at all.
If you saw Jeff and my exhaust ports you would just shake your head.

[Ron H]

GTOGeorge, why don't you turn up the power on your car? I have read you state many times you have it in it's mildest, or close to, form you can. Isn't that the same as pulling power?

[Travis Q]

Im not going to get into a pissing match with anyone here, but I thought I'd share some facts and comparisons between our car and a competitive NHRA Pro Mod car.

1. Our car is 100% paid for, built, tuned, and maintained by me and Rodney. It's built with our personal money. Not Butler Performance's money. Not Quillen Motorsports Engineering's money. We get zero financial help from anyone else. We do get a little help from a few companies in the form of reduced costs on products, and we greatly appreciate that help. We did all the fabrication, all the engine, transmission, and clutch work ourselves. We painted it ourselves. We wired it ourselves. It is truly our creation.

2. Our car is a heavy pig. It is extremely difficult to push 2760 lb to five second elapsed times at our current power level. I can immediately name a few changes that we could make that would drop 250 lb out of the car. Unfortunately, those changes would cost us around 11-12K, and that is simply money we don't have. It is what it is.

3. The weight is the reason we have to take power out early. Despite this fact, our early numbers are very, very close to those posted by NHRA legal turbocharged entries. Once you get to 330 feet and beyond, it becomes a horsepower game, and that's where the big difference is. From about 400 feet on, we're all in.

4. We are down on power compared to the NHRA cars. Those combinations make around 3400 hp at the stripe; you can't go 250+ mph at 2650 lb without horsepower. And it's difficult to compare a 526 inch 481X or hemi at 9200-9500 rpm to a 482 inch Pontiac at 8000 rpm. The difference in mass flow rate is staggering!

5. While we've got a good pair of turbos, they are a far cry from the latest technology from Precision. The latest technology runs exactly $5k my price per turbo, for a total of $10k. I'm a Precision distributor. Again, it's money we do not have. The difference is boost; where we are a tick over 40 pounds, the NHRA wedge motors are a tick over 50 pounds. You couple that with the difference in engine size and rpm, and you're looking at two different things entirely.

6. Our chassis, while nothing like Bill's or Mark's, isn't a terrible piece. A little too stiff for the tracks we run on, but not terrible. It's not what's holding us back.

So there it is.

It's funny to me why it is that no one asks why the screw blown guys aren't going 3.60s to the 1/8 mile, that's what the other screw blown cars are running. Or why the Pro Stock style cars aren't running 6.60s, that's what other Pro Stock cars are running. No one says anything about the piles of money and thousands of hours that everyone else is spending with limited results, but when we make our own best attempt with the modest means that we have, we get a response like "To run with the big dogs you got to spend like the big dogs"? What a pile of crap.

The bottom line is that we are ALL trying to take this pile of junk Pontiac and push it to the next level, to where it's not junk anymore. We're all trying to further the brand.

The big question is, "is it worth it?"

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by Ron H

GTOGeorge, why don't you turn up the power on your car? I have read you state many times you have it in it's mildest, or close to, form you can. Isn't that the same as pulling power?

George is a bracket racer and pretty good at it too. Dont think he has the desire to turn it up and break parts.

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Scott......I don't think so, the chassie is certed for 7.50 but it's out dated, mild steel and is over 25 years old.


GTO George

i was serious George! im actually looking at an older double frame rail car despite the other project im working on...

[bruce driggers]

[QUOTE=LiL Jack;4823548]Didn't they change the cam in it too?


Ran the original cam first the car picked up , installed new cam , car slowed down , reinstalled original , car picked back up , believe what you want , lol

[Ron H]

Originally Posted by Scott Roberts

George is a bracket racer and pretty good at it too. Dont think he has the desire to turn it up and break parts.

Thanks for answering for George, Scott.

I simply posed a reasonable question since he is not really pushing his engine much with 11 lbs of boost. He is obviously taking power out for his reason. Perhaps he should think about that before questioning others. Especially since the Butler turbo car is the top of the Pontiac food chain right now...

[GTOGEORGE]

Travis,
All I did was ask one little question about why you guys had to take power out to make it down the track, where other Turbo Pro Mod cars were making it down the track. It wasn't a cut down it was only a question I didn't know the answer to ............now I do. As for compairing it to Bill M's car that was your buddy Tom, I NEVER mentioned Bills car. I for one like your car, as I do any Forced induction Pontiac.

Ron H,
Just because my boost numbers are low doesn't mean it's not making power.........right now it's at 1050HP or so, pretty good number for only 9 -10.5 lbs.of boost. My question about Butlers car was taken the wrong way. It was just an I didn't know question.

Scott,
Sorry but I can't sell it right now, I would love to move up into a Chrome Moly chassie T/S car.



GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

My comment about the Butler chassis was comparing the cost of a Top Shelf Chassis (Cubic Money) to what they are trying to do themselves, as Travis posted.

In the old days, Clay Phillips "Classical Gas" had a much nicer chassis/body but the Butler's did well with what they had. Rodney was actually the first Pontiac Guy in the 8s at that time (with his type of car). Then the Butlers built the 65 GTO and the Firebird. Both cars were again, what the average guy would campaign and build.

So now as Travis has posted we have the latest gen 63 Tempest from the guys.
It basically holds the record today with the 6.27 ET and the 228 MPH (at least at Norwalk).

So I personally think that the guys have done pretty well (consistency) over the years with the Tradition Pontiac Engine/ vehicles.

Just telling what I think I know on the deal from helping the Butler Family and others for many years.

So I think that Travis and I answered you question about Brad P vs Travis and Rodney. Answered your question about the chassis, and responded to your comment about the Big Dogs. Have a good night George.

Tom Vaught

ps George, the Semi/Motor-Home that the Rodney and Travis drove to Norwalk the last couple of years was built by them from pieces, furnished by them, wired by them, you name it, they built the whole deal, so add that to your list.

[Scott Roberts]

Originally Posted by Ron H

Thanks for answering for George, Scott.

I simply posed a reasonable question since he is not really pushing his engine much with 11 lbs of boost. He is obviously taking power out for his reason. Perhaps he should think about that before questioning others. Especially since the Butler turbo car is the top of the Pontiac food chain right now...

Sorry Ron, George gets all twisted up when people ask that question... lots of people ask the same thing including me. My answer is just what i have gathered over the last several years of asking George the same thing..lol George is happy to brag about going rounds rather than low et's.

[GTOGEORGE]

Scott,
You win races by going rounds, I like winning races!


Tom,
No one cares about there Motor Home.



GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

Tom, No one cares about there Motor Home.

GTO George

Your opinion George but I think a lot of people admire people with SKILLs (as Rodney would say), even if you personally think others do not care about that kind of stuff.

Tom Vaught