[Will]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

IF the rods are out of a low mileage engine and pass magnaflux, yes; however, the cost of properly reconditioning a set of OE cast rods is not much lower than the cost of off-shore forged rods. If you plan on not exceeding 5500rpm on 455s or 5700 on 400s, the OE rods CAN last a long time. The problem is fatigue. ALL castings are subject to it. You can't see it because it occurs on the molecular level. Are you will to gamble with a casting that you really don't know how many cycles are on it? I'm not...

This is always the bottom line to this discussion. I say it all depends on the goals of the build. A driver-type engine that won't see the high side of 5000 RPM - and most driver type builds won't have a cam that will support revs higher than that - sure, why not? For any performance oriented build, especially one where power upgrades are a possibility in the future then absolutely new rods are the only choice.

[madokie]

Butler sells 5140 RPM I beams for 309$ , i would rather trust Butlers stuff wayyyyy before some mystery seller on ebay. even if these rods need minor work , you wind up with a stronger rod than a old stock rod.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by madokie

Butler sells 5140 RPM I beams for 309$ , i would rather trust Butlers stuff wayyyyy before some mystery seller on ebay. even if these rods need minor work , you wind up with a stronger rod than a old stock rod.

Those rods are the same rods RPM sells direct, for $300 shipped. Butler's price to me is $309.95 + $19 shipping. So, if on a tight budget, that will save nearly $30, unless Butler has checked & if needed, resized the big end, for that price.

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/sa...tockrod-2.html

http://www.racingpartsmaximum.com/policies.html

[Cliff R]

I have had quite a few sets of "H" beam rods supplied here as a "package" with a crank, rods, pistons, bearings and rings to assemble engines for customers. In most cases only one of the rods was un-packaged to weight it for balancing, and the rest were still in their original packaging....didn't matter who supplied them.

Even with that said we had a complete spinning assembly supplied to us with everything else needed to assemble a 455 a few years ago. The entire package was from Butler Performance, which included a cast steel crank and their "no-name" H beam rods. The pistons didn't even have anything on them to tell you where they were from.

Anyhow, as much as I dislike the cast steel cranks, everything in that deal was "spot-on" for size and the assembly went together w/o any issues anyplace. Unlike many of the off-shore cast steel cranks we've worked with before, the finish was excellent, journals round, smooth thrust surface, and stroke right on the money. They even supplied one of their flat solid camshafts, around 244/252 @ .050" on a 110LSA.

We used CNC ported KRE heads on that build from Dave at SD. It did OK but left a solid 30hp/40ft lbs torque on the table vs using the Old Faithful HR camshaft instead.

Anyhow and FWIW, it's highly UNLIKELY for $300 or so your are getting a set of 4340 "H" beam Pontiac rods that have been inspected, measured, and pin fit tested prior to shipping......Cliff

[helmerrock]

Lot's of great info! Surprised that there was some talk about stock cast rods with good bolts. I have a good set and some bolts still heat sealed on the card. I am leaning toward using these rods and bolts. I am not building a race engine, just a stock street engine that will be kept under 5500 RPM. I've seen a lot of advise on going to forged rods for the "insurance" of keeping things together. I have run several Pontiacs with stock rods and bolts some with ARP bolts. Never had the pleasure of ventilating a block even with some hard street use and on occasion 6000 RPM. Still considering the 5140 rods but leaning toward going with properly prepped stock cast rods. Thanks for all the inputs!!

[ponyakr]

"...it's highly UNLIKELY for $300 or so your are getting a set of 4340 "H" beam Pontiac rods that have been inspected, measured, and pin fit tested prior to shipping..."


Just to be clear, the rods mentioned in my last post are all RPM brand 5140 I-beams. And I have no idea what's been done to 'em, how close to spec they are, or what's needed to make 'em usable.

[Cliff R]

For the slight additional cost I would recommend upgrading to the 4340 "H" beam, Pro-Line, CAT, Scat, no-name brands from the Pontiac suppliers, etc.

I don't see the 5140 rods as all that great. I've used a few sets here w/o issue, but we've seen just enough of the pressed pin version allow the pins to slip and get out into the cylinder walls to avoid them.

Being in the business of helping folks out with carburetors and distributors for their projects, for sure I get to hear THOUSANDS of stories about these engines. When one sits down and starts outlining what is needed for a successful engine project, there are certainly a LOT of choices to make. I would never let a slight cost difference up-front trump using a much better part or parts so that we know for sure the end project will be much better for it.

It's about like using a set of Keith Black HT pistons, pretty decent parts all in all, but there is so much better stuff out there these days it makes no sense to do a slight upgrade over stock cast parts, when you can upgrade to really good stuff for a slight cost increase.......just my humble opinion on this subject......Cliff

[ponjohn]

I think PPR had some of the nicest rods available.

Who supplied him?

[mgarblik]

Before the Chinese rods, stock cast rods were often used in high dollar, high RPM, relatively high HP builds. Not because the owners were cheap but because sanctioning bodies REQUIRED STOCK connecting rods be used. The rules have changed, aftermarket rods are allowed and the cast rods out there may have more cycles on them. However, the stock cast Pontiac connecting rod is not a bad design and not a bad part. The secret to making them live is finding a COMPETENT MACHINE SHOP to recondition them. That is the real issue. Not the number of cycles and material quality. They have to be straight and round and have new bolts installed. Then they will be just fine in stock to "old school" street performance builds certainly to 500 HP and 5800 RPM's. The problem then becomes cost. The shop I work out of would charge around $20.00 per rod to check and properly recondition and ARP hardware is around $80.00. So you are right near the cost of the cheaper Chinese forged stuff. Which is better, properly reconditioned stock rods or Chinese cheapies out of the box? I think it is very close . I would probably lean toward the Chinese cheapies IF and ONLY IF, they were carefully checked, measured and verified by the machine shop. It would in my opinion, be a small upgrade from stock, not a dramatic improvement.

Originally Posted by helmerrock

Lot's of great info! Surprised that there was some talk about stock cast rods with good bolts. I have a good set and some bolts still heat sealed on the card. I am leaning toward using these rods and bolts. I am not building a race engine, just a stock street engine that will be kept under 5500 RPM. I've seen a lot of advise on going to forged rods for the "insurance" of keeping things together. I have run several Pontiacs with stock rods and bolts some with ARP bolts. Never had the pleasure of ventilating a block even with some hard street use and on occasion 6000 RPM. Still considering the 5140 rods but leaning toward going with properly prepped stock cast rods. Thanks for all the inputs!!

[steve25]

Note, I have seen over the years a lot of new, yet old packages of Rod bolts with rust on the bolt threads even though the package is sealed!
If your going the new bolt old cast Rod route make sure your bolts have no rust on them, and even down in the nut threads!

[ponyakr]

I ran cast rods in a '68 Bird Stocker & a '69 GTO stocker, both with 400 engines, turning about 6000rpm every pass. Never had a rod failure in these 400's or any of my 455 bracket engines, @ 5500rpm max. Never had any of the rods resized. Hey, I didn't even know that any of 'em might NEED resizing. I just assumed that if they came out of a running engine, they were OK.

I didn't know much of anything back then, except that I loved Pontiacs & drag racing. I reckin not a whole lot has changed, except that now, there is more info available.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

I think PPR had some of the nicest rods available.

Who supplied him?

RPM (Racing Parts Maximum) International.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Before the Chinese rods, stock cast rods were often used in high dollar, high RPM, relatively high HP builds. Not because the owners were cheap but because sanctioning bodies REQUIRED STOCK connecting rods be used. The rules have changed, aftermarket rods are allowed and the cast rods out there may have more cycles on them. However, the stock cast Pontiac connecting rod is not a bad design and not a bad part. The secret to making them live is finding a COMPETENT MACHINE SHOP to recondition them. That is the real issue. Not the number of cycles and material quality. They have to be straight and round and have new bolts installed. Then they will be just fine in stock to "old school" street performance builds certainly to 500 HP and 5800 RPM's. The problem then becomes cost. The shop I work out of would charge around $20.00 per rod to check and properly recondition and ARP hardware is around $80.00. So you are right near the cost of the cheaper Chinese forged stuff. Which is better, properly reconditioned stock rods or Chinese cheapies out of the box? I think it is very close . I would probably lean toward the Chinese cheapies IF and ONLY IF, they were carefully checked, measured and verified by the machine shop. It would in my opinion, be a small upgrade from stock, not a dramatic improvement.

Well said, Mike. Remember that in the world I came out of(aviation), cycles and hours in service are everything.