[The Champ]

You claim that I didn't debunk anything, yet you agree that tire stores won't sell 5 year old tires. If they won't sell them, they lose money. That is the debunk I was referring to - which you agreed with.

"Lots" means more than 2 or 3, there is usually at least 2 or 3 shops selling used tires in bigger cities, especially in the southwest big cities, literally all over the place & they usually cant speak english very well! Just because you dont know of any in your town or used to work somewhere doesnt mean they arent out there all over the country.

In my position, I covered southern MN and northern IA. You are from IA, my territory in IA ran from New Hampton to Algona east to west and as far south as Hampton all the way to the MN border. My MN territory went from Rochester to Fairmont, MN. That's not just 1 town. Your own description of places that sell used tires speaks volumes: "& they usually cant speak english very well!"

If you are so flush with money that you can afford new tires every year (your words, not mine), explain to me why you won't replace old tires that pose a legitimate safety hazard. If not for your own safety, for the safety of those that share the road with you?

Based on a $1000 price for a set of tires, that breaks down to $125 - 166.00 per year based on a 6 - 8 year replacement cycle. That's less than a couple of tanks of gas for my GTO (based on $4.00 per gallon premium).

Your statistics, while valid for ALL tires, isn't valid for OLD tires. It actually doesn't say a word about old tires.

Kane and his organization have identified over 250 incidents in which tires older than six years have experienced tread and belt separations — most resulting in loss-of-control and rollover crashes. These incidents were the cause of 233 fatalities and 300 injuries in 2012.

https://www.edmunds.com/car-maintena...over%20crashes.

Each year, hundreds of people are killed in the U.S. because of defective or worn tires. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration reports that 738 people were killed in car accidents caused by tire problems in 2017 alone.

Tire failures happen - new or old. But the increased risk of a tire failure for old tires is much greater. My sincere hope is that you not experience any tragedy due to your personal decision to run old tires. I was lucky and stopped before my old tire blew 20 years ago. Maybe you will be just as lucky some day in the future.

But I won't take that risk of running on old tires anymore after learning the facts of aged tires.

[Shiny]

I'm interested in the engineering and material science angles so I searched the net for a source of data and found it to be scarce (or maybe I'm not looking in the right places). Lots of discussion and controversy surrounding the one NHTSA-funded study that was published years ago and is now quoted heavily, along with the data collected at the same time.

There is one organization (SRS) that continued to press the tire industry to improve consumer awareness and promote regulations regarding labeling, but apparently that momentum lost steam.

For me, the fact that both auto and tire manufacturers protect their liability tells me there is truth to failure risk increasing with age, but I expect the statistical odds are low and I know the variation in contributing factors of materials, environment, inflation, usage, inspection, etc. make it nearly impossible to predict for any individual case.

Some of you might find this site interesting. It appears to be a legal firm that offers "expertise" in tire-related lawsuits. So there must still be enough injury and death from tire failure to build a business around it. Doesn't mean the occurrence rate is high, but the consequences of a tire failure can clearly be devastating:

https://wfirm.com/practice-areas/geo...lowout-lawyer/

It seems the "popular", albeit conservative, guidance is replace tires after 10 years even if they don't show any external signs of degradation or damage.

For me, the risk of injury or death isn't worth the risk. OTOH, I haven't had a set of tires last 10 years on any vehicle we drive.

My Pontiac isn't a driver yet, and it is sitting on 20-or-more-yr-old tires that hold air so I KNOW I'll buy new ones if and when it is on the road.

[78w72]

Champ- Not sure why this is being drug out so much. I stated some stats & reality on the topic, my apologies if you dont agree with them, hopefully we can just agree to disagree on some of them, but I will reply to each of your comments once more-

The debunking comment was to your statement that shops discount 2 year old tires, I never mentioned selling 5 year old tires as new, I agree they wont sell tires that old. Maybe you confused the 4-5 year old "new" tires I have, bought new 4-5 years ago but havent been mounted yet, I will use those this year & many years to come with zero worries due to age while they sat in my finished basement.

The shops selling used tires in this area speak perfect English, but are more geared to the people that cant afford new tires or bigger name shops for mechanical repairs. The comment was about the southwestern shops like in southern AZ etc that I have seen all kinds of & done business with, many times even the people at mcdonalds in those areas barely speak English, so the “volume” on that is very low...

The fact remains that there are "lots" of shops that sell used tires & wheels regardless of where your territory was, and apparently your job duties didnt deal with these types of shops so not sure how thats relevant to this subject?? There are places all over the country that sell used tires, ebay included… some even have PATCHES!

Flush with money?? LOL! The hypothetical comment of affording new tires each year was in reply to your lame snarky comment that "if I cant afford to buy tires maybe I cant afford the car," or something like that. I did explain to you why, in detail, with stats... it is not a high risk safety factor to drive around town at low speeds on tires that are in good condition but might be older than some arbitrary date. You can try to exaggerate this all you want but there are far more people driving on unsafe or neglected tires than a guy in a classic car that sees 1000-1500 miles a year at lower speeds that purposely avoids high traffic or congested areas. Im far more worried about stupid drivers causing an accident to damage my car than driving on 8-10 year old tires in good condition.
Theres quite a few others on this thread & forum that go 10+ years on tires or do 130mph testing their new cam, you better jump on them for all the dangers they are causing instead of trying to single me out.

Regarding the suggested age from tire companies, Shurkey worded it better in post #23 than I did, that is done more than most people realize by companies and it applies to tires just as much.

The statistics I posted were very general just to show how extremely rare tire accidents are & just as you said, none of them mention age so nobody can really put a date on this, its case by case & mostly from manufacture defects &/or commercial vehicles as that link from a law firm I posted mentioned.

I used 1 million tires as an example which Im sure covers “old” tires, but with 280+ million vehicles on the road x4 or more tires each, the stats are extremely low for tire related accidents or deaths.
The 78k accidents & 400 deaths in my link is high compared to other numbers I saw doing a search, others said ~30k accidents or ~300 deaths. Your example has some a little lower from 2012 & some higher from 2017... but if you do the math for any stat you find it clearly shows tire related accidents & deaths are extremely low, like .00000x% based on the actual number of cars/tires on the road any given year... more chance of being struck by lightning!

The only point I was making is that how a tire was treated in its life has far more to do with a failure than just a made up date or some random guys subjective opinion. If someone drives on an under/over inflated tire or it has a defect and it blows & causes an accident or death, you cant blame its age for that or even the tire in most cases? Too many variables to say what caused the tire to fail. So the alarmist claim of risking others safety with the way most classic cars are driven pales in comparison to the more serious risk factors out there on the road every day.

Everyone takes calculated risks every day, flying on a plane, taking a drug their doctor prescribed, I could list 100+ more examples. If people lived their lives based on alarmist, extreme worst case scenarios, nobody would leave their house!

Thanks for the concern, I hope the same for you or anyone, I also hope nobody gets in an accident by a teenager texting or a drunk driver while they are driving around on their new tires. Calculated risks.

Shiny- some good points on the multiple variations to predict what caused a tire failure. But there aren't any law firms that base their practice or build a business around tire failures... the link I posted on page 3 was from a law firm too, & they stressed how rare tire failures are & how difficult it is to blame the tire itself, they connect most of them to non passenger vehicles & neglect, not age.

Good debate & points made for both sides of this, Ive said my experience & opinion along with some facts, stats & reality so will leave it at that.

[65madgoat]

Why would anyone drive around town (or be forced to drive due to old tires) a vintage hi-po car at low speeds?

ha

[Formulajones]

The low speeds around town idea is great in theory. Most of you guys just don't drive these cars much anyway so I can see the reluctance to change outdated tires.

Here in Arizona we do 200-300 miles trips on the weekends. Not low speed around town stuff either. It's 100 miles between the big cities here and the highways in-between we're doing 75-80 mph (limit is 75) and sometimes spirts above that to pass semis so we aren't an obstruction in the fast lane for those going 90+.
So you better have tires you trust and a good spare or you'll be stuck in the middle of the desert out here, been there done that and it's not fun when it's 110 outside.

In fact we just did a 220 mile round trip this past weekend for good guys, hauling ass on the highway lol

[Rachelsdad]

Not to rehash, but I wanted to share a new experience with you guys regarding my 20-year-old-but-never-out-of-the-shop Diamond Backs...

I've put about 2K miles on these tires since getting the '63 home from the shop last fall. Around town, they have felt great. On the highway over 65, they've felt like the rear wheels have needed balancing (the seat has been dancing a gig under my rump).

I left Long Island, NY last week for my Leesburg, VA office and second home, and went via Stillwater, NJ to stop at Old Stillwater Garage. All was good with that trip (other than the over-65 vibration).

I left Leesburg, VA for Springdale, AR Saturday morning. About 300 miles down I-81, my right rear tire blew out (pic to follow). No damage to the car, other cars, persons, or even to the trim ring. I mounted the spare on the car, and got back on the road (feeling a little uneasy). After the blowout, I did not exceed 65, even with the higher speed limit.

I stopped for gas about 60 or 70 miles into Tennessee, and when I pulled off the highway and slowed down, I felt that distinct thump-thump of a tire out of round.

In the gas station, I drove around a little bit, and stuck my head out the window. Sure enough, I could hear the left rear tire thumping, though visually, it seemed fine. I ran my hand all around it, but could not trust it.

I'll know more on Monday (I'm waylaid at a Days Inn until then), with the car having been safely flatbedded to a local tire shop, where I will swap out all four tires for new radials (and then order fresh Diamond Backs all the way around after I return from the POCI convention).

Shifted belts? Old tires left sitting, even out of the sun, but still old? Hard to tell. You guys have made a believer out of me, though: no more old tires, no matter how good they look and how unused they may be.

[Rachelsdad]

Pics of my blowout. As mentioned, there was no damage to the trim ring (there is something of an optical illusion where the whitewall is reflected in the ring, but the ring itself is not bent or damaged). I still have the tire (well, for another day, until I have a new one mounted up). I'll try to snap a couple more of the tire, as it is unclear (to me, at least) whether the sidewall blew out and took the tread or the tread blew out and tore the sidewall.

Lesson learned. No need to take the class again.

[Formulajones]

At least it didn't do any damage to the car so lucky there. I've had tires come apart and literally destroy moldings, trim, and even tear up a fender pretty good that ends up costing me 4 times more than a new set of tires would have.

But hey, you're out driving and enjoying the car, that's the best part

[Formulajones]

I don't know if this was discussed and I don't have time to go back and read but may have happened and how it's been explained to me from more than one tire manufacture, even though the tires looked perfect before the trip, age, even when kept inside, has an affect on the construction of the tire. I was told the manufacture process consists of many things, and one of those is some type of glue or bonding material that is sometimes used along with the cord, belts or what ever else is part of the tire construction, and that glue over time does break down or loses it's ability to adhere over time. Heat cycles eventually causes it to come apart and you'll sometimes see separation, or feel it while driving. So it's not so much the rubber deteriorating, as many times, like yours, the tires look perfect and show no signs of any dry rot or cracking. It's the materials used inside the tire that hold things together that eventually reaches the end of it's lifespan.

Whether all that is true I don't know as tire manufactures obviously have skin in the game and want to sell you tires. But I've seen this happen more times than I can count on perfectly good looking tires so it does seem to have some merit.

[OCMDGTO]

A set of tires is whole lot cheaper than a new car

[Rachelsdad]

All good points, guys, and yes, we did discuss normal breakdown of the tire components over time. I wasn't seeing any issues on short runs, but the vibration was nasty, and really did feel like wheel balancing. What puzzled me was the "in and out* nature of the vibration, seemingly irrespective of speed (i.e., 65 MPH, vibration started...then calmed for a time, before starting up again - almost like a change in road surface). That was a warning sign which registered in the back of my head but never quite made it to my forebrain.

Indeed, the cost of a set of tires is miniscule in comparison to potential damage to the car, either from the steel belts flying about or from impact - and I am not even going to draw a comparison to potential injury or death.

Nope, no more moldy-oldies for me. My mistake was ordering those new tires before the car was ready to come home. They should have been part of the last phase of the work, in the weeks before the car came home from the shop.

Driving and enjoying the car: Absolutely!

[78w72]

Happy to hear the car wasnt damaged or you or other cars/people.... However I would never suggest driving on 20 year old tires, especially on long trips at 65mph... my limits are 8-10'ish.

[geeteeohguy]

Steel belted radials built in this century do NOT last as long as the old stuff built in the 70's-90's due to the Green Agenda changing of rubber compound. New rubber degrades and rots much sooner. I have run 50 year old bias ply tires on antique cars....a friend has a set of 74 year old tires on his old Model T. But new radials? I've seen them come apart after 8 years or so, and I've personally had brand new expensive inner tubes for my antique cars rot apart in 12 months.....forcing me to re-install the 45-year old inner tubes that were fine. And don't get me started on new shifter boots or control arm bushings or body mounts, etc.

[Gator67]

An old tire doesn't have to be rolling to do damage. This happened to a friend of my in town a couple years ago. Car was sitting for a year or so outside. Not sure how old the tire was...Couldn't believe what it did the fender and inner fender.

[Formulajones]

I had one do that once. Car was stored indoors for years and never saw the light of day. Come out one day and the tire was simply exploded into pieces with rubber chunks laying 15 feet away. Didn't damage the car luckily.
Tires do really weird things sometimes.