[pastry_chef]

ANYONE know someone who has pulled apart a properly checked and installed Eagle, Scat rod?

I DON'T THINK SO!

I would NOT call the parts 'Garbage'. As scary as it is about the country of origin and the POWER they are gaining in the world.

What were we saying about quality? Please guys!

[jsd]

I'm surprised noone has said the following:

What in the **** does some gun company have to do with rods? Why do you assume that all factories are of the same caliber? What is wrong with 1940s or 1950s machining equipment? I'd rather have them use older machining equipment bought for cheap than brand new cheap (junk).. and even then, you still don't know what the con rod manacturers use. You just know what some gun company uses. WHERE IS THE RELEVANCE?

[Dragncar]

tom s,Big 5.Wow good for you.I guess if I were you I would be playing around with all of that super rare RAV stuff too.Brian is right,no one is trying to say the cast Chineese cranks are in any way as good as a a USA billett.And I thought CROWER was doing a Chinneese billet crank for a little less than a full "USA" billet.I think I am going to wait and try and get one of the 1100$ 4340 forgings in my new motor before next season.Just for the peace of mind,and if I decide to go with ported high comp aluminum heads I will feel a lot better.Do not care if it comes from China.theoldone,like KS said.If you feel so strong about it,get rid of your PC.

[Mr. P-Body]

If Crower would make their prices competitive and their product equal, we would promote them. They will not. Oliver and Crower rods of equal or better quality/strength cost more than twice the Eagle H-beams.
As for the machines? One of the sharper individuals here has pointed out, machine tools from the '50s are better than NEW ones are today. One must simply know how to use them.
I can't say about C.A.T. or Scat, but Eagle buys only raw forgings and castings. All machine work is done in Tennessee.
Eagle cranks and C.A.T./Scat cranks are not the same. Not the same casting, either. There was a "scare" about the thrust face on the Eagle cranks. No more than 20 got out, but all the boards (and even "the book") are a-buzz with the defect. It was gone before most heard of it. But, like anything else, negative input travels like wild fire, but positive or rebuttal input goes by snail mail...
The jobs "lost" are not union jobs. We couldn't afford ANY cranks made by union workers here. Look at the prices comparing Eagle forgings to Callie's or Cola's. FWIW, our 412 CID small block made over 700 HP on motor, and took a 400 hit MANY 1/4 mile passes. (3,300 lb. race weight '68 Camaro, 8.96 @ 149...) Bearings and crank look new.
Lastly, the Eagle "kits" come with Clevite bearing, SRP pistons, and JE rings, ALL made in USA... Let them do the grunt work, and we'll do the "finesse"...
Again, we're debating the world economy versus isolationism. All you union workers: Are you willing to take a 40% hit in pay to insure American jobs? That would bring you in line with non-union workers doing the same jobs.

[theoldone]

I'd like to add some more facts to this thread- I have a close friend I went to high school with, he recently purchased a rough 1969 GTO convertible- being it was a Ram Air III car with air conditioning, power seat, power windows, and many other options- he decided to restore it. He now has $18,000 in it and counting. I rebuilt the engine for him, put it in the car, and also put new brake and fuel lines, calipers, etc. on it. While I had it he asked if I'd hang the front end sheetmetal as well- i.e. hood, fenders, inner fenders, front bumper, front valance, and get the hidden headlights working. So I did.

He bought (2) brand new reproduction Chinese stamped fenders for it, and a reproduction hood. The hood fit fine. The fenders were a MESS. The right fender had to be shimmed ot death to get it even near lining up. The left fender was full of dents and was stamped so far off on the body lines, it didn't line up well at all and looked sick. This was after sending fenders BACK to the supplier 2 times trying to get good ones. We put them on as best we could- it was at least presentable- but to use those repro fenders, the entire fender would have to be covered with bondo to get a smooth finish.

The painter came to get the car, when he saw the fenders, he said where is the original ones. He took one look at the original ones, and said he'd rather use those- even though they were rotted badly behind the front wheel area. So now he is cutting the bottoms out of the new reproduction fenders, and welding that into the old fenders as patches, and bolting the original fenders back on.

The original fenders have a much better fit and sharper body line.

More and more bodymen are now insisting on patching the original quarters, fenders, doors, sheetmetal, rather than buying reproductions- because the original stuff fits that much better in the end.

[tempest455]

Mr. P-Body, my Eage crank was purchased in 2003 (many years after the release) and still had the thrust marks. Fortunately, my engine builder knew how to deal with the problem and that was the only problem. All other measurements were right on the money. I would not hesitate to use one in a stock or even mild performance application.

That being said, just one or two failures (even hearsay) is enough for me. I bought the Eagle because, that's all that was available at the time. As soon as the new forgings are here, out with the cast!

[Colin]

Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body

As for the machines? One of the sharper individuals here has pointed out, machine tools from the '50s are better than NEW ones are today. One must simply know how to use them.

Thank you Sir for the compliment!!

[KS circutguy]

What the hell does Chinese fenders have to do with cranks?
U may now apologize for being a 'Jambronee'.

[KS circutguy]

I've been told buy numerous builders they have seen more failures with forged cranks than cast.
Mainly cause a cast crank will flex, and a forging will not and snap.
BTW; we are still waiting for U to trash your Chinese PC.lol

[Mr. P-Body]

ks,
I'm afraid the builders you've talked to have it backwards. A FORGED steel crankshaft WILL flex, "self-compensating" for harmonics. The same is true of forged rods. A casting is MUCH more rigid, maintaining dimensional integrity right up to the point of failure, where they can break with little or no warning. This flexibility is the primary reason EVERYONE wants a forged crank. NOTE: It's common in the outside-the-business crowd to refer to the cast steel cranks as "steel". For our purposes, a casting is a casting. If the word "steel" is used by itself, they are refering to a FORGED crank, NOT cast. This is often an area of confusion. A cast "steel" crank is nowhere near the strength of a "forged steel" crank.
Many of the aftermarket cranks used by the cheaper shops (Chevy, Ford) are cast steel. Eagle, C.A.T., Scat, Ohio, etc. all supply these. These castings have proven to be rather weak, causing main bearing failures without any logical explanation. The Pontiac version is remarkably different, as are the big block Fords (460-based). Due to the large main bearings and overlap of the rod journals, they (the cast steel units) are an absolute bargain at less than $300 for a crank that can take 700 horsepower. The Chevy boys would KILL for a crank that tough and that cheap. Even with BBC, a casting just doesn't cut it once power goes over 650, or RPM goes over 7,000.
There is a debate among some whether a forging is better than a billet or not. For the most part, forgings are superior. One of the differences is the "adjustability" of the design when having a billet crank "made". You can add counterweights, change dimensions, all without a "stress" penalty of machining an already-done part.
The bottom line here is the cast cranks are fine for all but the higher level race engines. For 1,000-plus horsepower, the factory nodulars aren't up to the job (for long, anyway), so the Moldex or Crower are the way to go. As for the "new forging"? Don't hold your breath... And yes, they're coming from China.

Jim

[theoldone]

Originally Posted by KS circutguy

What the hell does Chinese fenders have to do with cranks?
U may now apologize for being a 'Jambronee'.

(lol) since when do forged cranks break more than cast cranks ?

to answer your question- it shows that Chinese labor lacks the quality we demand- whether it be cranks, rods, guns, or fenders- you will get an inferior product.

so go buy them if you want to- so I can LAUGH at you !

[Half-Inch Stud]

Cast vs Forged Cranks has been debated for 50 years.
Chevy picked Forged and wore bigger H-Dampers, split mains, spun rod bearings, and broke cranks when the design safety factors were ~1.

Pontiac picked Cast and snapped Rods, or snapped cranks when the design safety factors went <0. HIS

[Bruce Meyer]

Mr Pbody- 700 horse with a Chinese crank??!!. That would be a short fused time bomb. Ive seen those cranks fail on 400 hp to 600 hp motors and everything in between. At the track that I race at 4 out of 5 Pontiac racers that have tried those cranks had a catostrophic failure. Some more than once. (They aparantly bought the vendors BS and tried another only to have it fail). One died on the 2nd pull on a dyno. All had machining issues that had to be fixed before installing. I could go on and on about Chinese steel but most people here are brainwashed by their favorite Pontiac vendor and wont listen anyway.

[Brian Baker]

Interesting testimonial, Bruce. I agree, making that kind of HP on a cast crank can be risky...but that is not to say it cannot be done. Pontiacdude Ken Keefer has made in the neighborhood of 1000-HP with a factory 428 crank, with no failures. I've made 800-HP with the Chinese crank, with no failures, and the crank checked out a-ok after disassembly. I'm curious though, at these higher HP levels (700+) that these people that you know had a failure with these cranks, how many were running steel rods vs. how many were running aluminum rods?

[tempest455]

I had one of the worst bottom end exlplosions you would ever see. Anyone that saw it was amazed. It took out everything! The shocking part was, the factory 455 crank did not break! It bent the snout but it did not break. That's considering when it let go, it took out (2) rods, pistons, block, a cylinder wall, cam, balancer etc.

I am curious if the Eagle would have stayed intact? I still have yet to hear of someone breaking a factory crank.

[KS circutguy]

So according to 'theoldone' lol all the major builders, ie; Butler, Ken K. and others are wrong using Eagle parts.
Mr. P, I stand corrected!

[Mr. P-Body]

Bruce,
While there are many shops and people that have had a miriad of problems with the Eagle and C.A.T. cranks, our shop is not one of them. I suspect there are a few things at work here.
First, since they first started coming over, Eagle, Scat and C.A.T. cranks have been lumped into one category. This is a mistake. They are from different foundries, and Eagles are all machined in USA. I can't say about the others. So, if it SAYS "Eagle" on it, chances are, it's an Eagle. If it does not, is is not.
Second, as with many "bargain" parts, these cranks end up in the hands of weekend warriors and other ammetuers. This does not mean ONLY professionals know what they're doing. But I know of at least three Eagle cranks right here in the Richmond area, installed by people that shouldn't have tools, much less be allowed to assemble engines. Yes, they failed. They would have failed had they been 990s... The point here is to be sure to consider the source.
Third, we HAVE had many over 600 and a few at the 700-plus level with the Eagle. No problems. But we also hear that you can't make more than 600 without studding and 4-bolting, which we know to NOT be true. We hear you can't make 600 HP with D-port heads without adders. Again, not true.
My point in this entire thread is to illustrate another angle. Not EVERYONE has the trouble. Why not? Maybe you should ask those that do. That 2003 date that was posted about the thrust face was WHEN that was happening. It wasn't an ongoing thing, but to hear you guys tell it, EVERY Eagle crank EVER made had the problem.
I will never post inaccurate information. I may voice an opinion from time to time, but unless I qualify it AS an opinion, you can bet the information is accurate. It IS my opinion the Eagle products are among the best automotive performance VALUES out there. It is NOT my opinion that the Eagle crank (Pontiac) can take 700 HP. It's a fact. It's also not my opinion a cast crank is inferior to a quality forging. That, too, is a fact.
And to back up what Brian said, we've seen 4" stroke castings make 1,000 HP AND rev to over 7,000 without a wimper. Same with the 3.75" strokes.
And lastly, it's true, Chinese alloys aren't as "clean" as American made steel. Too bad it costs more than the casting itself...
The fact that Eagle machines their own stuff has to be worth something.

PAX

[KS circutguy]

Excellent P man.

[Bruce Meyer]

Mr P-body- Im not trying to bust your balls but you might want to check out this thread by a well known vendor posted this year.
http://216.178.81.108/forums/showthread.php?t=415544

[Dragncar]

Mr.P-Body makes sense,a few other people on this thread make little sense.I am sure the Eagle crank will stand up to the 600 HP I am planning on putting through it.Whittmore is taking his time but he pays a LOT of attention to detail,which means everything.I will buy one of the new forgings and re balance the rotating assembly if I can get one in time,just for peace of mind.And no big holes in the side of the block.My freind bought one of those "stroker" kits.(they are not realy stokers,they are just like offset grinding a 455 .040 and using a BBC rod,people have been doing that since the seventys.but now they have to call it a "stroker")Anyway he did not take my advice,consider grinding the new Eagle crank .010-.010 and resizing the Eagle 6.8 rods.He used everthing as is and lost all oil pressure on his first pass.No real attention to detail.