[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

Tom, on page 184 in Milts book, Milt says that he put a 455 crank into the 428 and then bored it out so it would become a 472 cu inch motor. I guess this would have been in 1988 according to the time Bill Sherman had contacted him to bring the Goat back out.

That's also when he upgraded the valves from the 1.92 intake to the 2.02 intake it is now.

I really wish I lived back there to be able to meet and talk shop with you guys. What a learning experience it would be.

If you do the math on the Wallace racing calculator site, Milt would have had to bore the 428 block out from 4.125" to 4.230", a bore job of .105" which is quite a stretch for a 67-69 428 block to take but possible I guess.. I still go by the 4.375" crank number I was told years ago. Why would Milt have been afraid to turn the engine over 6000 rpm with a factory 4.210" crank and good parts? The 455 HO guys with 4.210" cranks had Lots of Experience at that rpm.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I was glad that I could return the original 4:33 gear and housing to you Tenney, for the car. It served its purpose under my car and I was careful with the rear-end vs the other ones I blew up as I know the Wanger's axle history. I really enjoyed the short you-tube video, the engine sounds really healthy. The only way a 64 GTO should sound.

Tom Vaught

Might put a 3.90 back in at some point, Tom. 4.33's buzz the motor a bit on the highway, but they're pretty fun around town.

Credit Scott (Jim/Milt/Mr. DeLorean) for the engine ... Does run pretty well!

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Might put a 3.90 back in at some point, Tom. 4.33's buzz the motor a bit on the highway, but they're pretty fun around town.

Credit Scott (Jim/Milt/Mr. DeLorean) for the engine ... Does run pretty well!

Yep, the 3.90s do work better at 70 mph vs the 4.33 gears. Burn some gas with the 4.33 gears and a good engine. I burned 21 gallons going 150 miles Kalamazoo, Mi to Grosse Pointe, Mi one time. 7.1 mpg

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

Tom, on page 184 in Milts book, Milt says that he put a 455 crank into the 428 and then bored it out so it would become a 472 cu inch motor. I guess this would have been in 1988 according to the time Bill Sherman had contacted him to bring the Goat back out.

That's also when he upgraded the valves from the 1.92 intake to the 2.02 intake it is now.

I really wish I lived back there to be able to meet and talk shop with you guys. What a learning experience it would be.

Marty Palbykin did a 473 engine using a 455 crank and block but I believe cut the rod journals down to 2.0" SB Chebby bearing size and stroked the crank to get the cubes. Either way would be tough with a stock stroke 455 crank.

Tom Vaught

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

If you do the math on the Wallace racing calculator site, Milt would have had to bore the 428 block out from 4.125" to 4.230", a bore job of .105" which is quite a stretch for a 67-69 428 block to take but possible I guess.. I still go by the 4.375" crank number I was told years ago. Why would Milt have been afraid to turn the engine over 6000 rpm with a factory 4.210" crank and good parts? The 455 HO guys with 4.210" cranks had Lots of Experience at that rpm.

Tom Vaught

Hi Tom,
Interesting that Milt either cant remember the true stroke of the motor or stretched the truth a little (no pun intended) to downsize that actual size of the motor. I can only go by what the book says.
-Don

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

Hi Tom,
Interesting that Milt either cant remember the true stroke of the motor or stretched the truth a little (no pun intended) to downsize that actual size of the motor. I can only go by what the book says.
-Don

There is no stretching the truth about Milt having a BIGGER Motor in that car, (maybe not like the IA-2 stuff today) but much larger than any 389/421/428 motor. He may not or I may not remember exactly the numbers BUT it was a CHEATER engine. That is saying something since Wangers/ Dirty Ed seemed to like the 440 stuff more so that the bigger stroke stuff.

Speaking of CHEATER stuff. I had one of Milt's "744" hydraulic camshafts camshafts "read" one time by my friend Don Hubbard (who was Vice President of Camshaft Machine Company/Wolverine Cams and later a V.P. at Crane Cams when the family sold out to Crane.) CMC is now on their own again.

So I receive this "744" Milt camshaft (used) and send it to them. The camshaft was a Lunati camshaft but with big numbers. This modern camshaft is still small compared to the numbers I remember for Milt's camshaft.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1778&gid=287

Milt was really on his game during the "Bill Sherman/ Milt S 64 GTO World Tour" with that car. I believe Milt actually ran in the 10s with that car at least once.

Memories. We are fortunate to still have the car, Milt and his book, Jim and his book, and access to the magazine articles to speculate of what really happened.

Tom Vaught

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

There is no stretching the truth about Milt having a BIGGER Motor in that car, (maybe not like the IA-2 stuff today) but much larger than any 389/421/428 motor. He may not or I may not remember exactly the numbers BUT it was a CHEATER engine. That is saying something since Wangers/ Dirty Ed seemed to like the 440 stuff more so that the bigger stroke stuff.

Speaking of CHEATER stuff. I had one of Milt's "744" hydraulic camshafts camshafts "read" one time by my friend Don Hubbard (who was Vice President of Camshaft Machine Company/Wolverine Cams and later a V.P. at Crane Cams when the family sold out to Crane.) CMC is now on their own again.

So I receive this "744" Milt camshaft (used) and send it to them. The camshaft was a Lunati camshaft but with big numbers. This modern camshaft is still small compared to the numbers I remember for Milt's camshaft.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1778&gid=287

Milt was really on his game during the "Bill Sherman/ Milt S 64 GTO World Tour" with that car. I believe Milt actually ran in the 10s with that car at least once.

Memories. We are fortunate to still have the car, Milt and his book, Jim and his book, and access to the magazine articles to speculate of what really happened.

Tom Vaught

Hi Tom,
Thanks for your insight and story. I too had heard that the "744" cam that Milt used was not the factory version. Milts book is a great read in my opinion and he does go into detail regarding engine specs on the magazine cars.

Yes, I agree we are very blessed that we have Jim W & Milt Schornack and their memoirs to read & reread (lol).

I can remember in 1995 at the Tiger Run but up at the Madras dragstrip, here I am 24 years old & I go up to Wangers while he's standing against a fence watching the cars go by and I ask him if the C&D GTO really had a 421 in it or not. Pete McCarthy had previously told me it was a 421.

So Wangers not even missing a beat or even stopping to look at me says, "Goddam it, how many times do I have to tell you people it was a 389 in that car!!!"

So I was rather shocked at his aggressive response towards me and walked off to go and hangout with Jim Christianson who had once owned the #749 Thompson/Shrewsbury Super Duty LeMans. What stories he told me!

So fast forward to the 2008 Tiger Run, now Im 37 and Im again talking to Wangers at his book signing table but with Dave Anderson & my dad is next to me. I tell Wangers the story of what he said to me back in 1995 and how after reading his book, I came across his admittance to the C&D Goat having a 421 in it and how I had reacted by saying to myself, " That Son of a *itch lied to me!!! LOL

Well, Wangers kinda looked down at the ground and I think my dad wanted to go and hide behind something. Big Dave Anderson just stood there and smiled.

Don

[geeteeohguy]

Never been to a Tiger Run. I did meet Jim Wangers in 2008 at a small Pontiac show in Madera, California, which is in my "backyard". He signed the protecto plate for my '65 GTO, commented on my '67 GTO convertible, and signed a copy of Glory Days, which I bought. I told him I'd been wanting to meet him for over 30 years, which was true. I found him to be absolutely charming and gracious, and a Car Guy to the core. I thanked him for his contribution to The Great One, and told him I appreciated him taking the time to come to such a small local event. But that says it all about the man. He cares about these cars and he cares about the people who restore, own, and drive them. To me, the fact that he was a little "slippery" back in the day when he was promoting these cars is A-OK. Part of the game, and part of history, now. Heck, if there were no Riger GTO's, think of how DULL this thread would be!!! Great stories from all yu guys out there, and keep 'em coming. Man, Don, you sure put poor JW in a spot.....

[geeteeohguy]

Oops. It's RINGER GTO's.....

[SD421]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

Man, Don, you sure put poor JW in a spot.....

And Jim Wangers was still courteous enough after that to take a picture with me!!
And you are right Jeff, without J. Wangers there probably wouldnt even be this forum to share stories and all that good stuff.

Don

BTW here are some pics I found on the web. I hope its ok. 3 pics of the Red car and a recreation of the Blue car.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

Hi Tom,
I can remember in 1995 at the Tiger Run but up at the Madras dragstrip, here I am 24 years old & I go up to Wangers while he's standing against a fence watching the cars go by and I ask him if the C&D GTO really had a 421 in it or not. Pete McCarthy had previously told me it was a 421.

So Wangers not even missing a beat or even stopping to look at me says, "Goddam it, how many times do I have to tell you people it was a 389 in that car!!!"

So I was rather shocked at his aggressive response towards me and walked off to go and hangout with Jim Christianson who had once owned the #749 Thompson/Shrewsbury Super Duty LeMans. What stories he told me!

So fast forward to the 2008 Tiger Run, now Im 37 and Im again talking to Wangers at his book signing table but with Dave Anderson & my dad is next to me. I tell Wangers the story of what he said to me back in 1995 and how after reading his book, I came across his admittance to the C&D Goat having a 421 in it and how I had reacted by saying to myself, " That Son of a *itch lied to me!!! LOL

Well, Wangers kinda looked down at the ground and I think my dad wanted to go and hide behind something. Big Dave Anderson just stood there and smiled.

Don

I think Jim was in a "No Win" situation. Three options:

1) Either he admits that he knew about the 421 engine swaps and loses his credibility as far as being a marketing guy.

2) He continues to deny that the engines had 421 engines in them.

3) He got a lot more "Street Smart" from 1963-64 to where he is today.

He could very well have been lied to by Frank R, Milt, and the rest of the guys at Royal prior to the road tests. He was their customer, they were trying to sell a "Royal Bobcat" package and generate more work for the dealership. A "Ringer" engine makes a big impression on the GM guys and the magazine guys about how smart the Royal Guys are with their Engine Tune-ups.

I have seen really good Street Racers lie to you right to your face, win the race, smile all the way to the bank, and brag about how stupid you were later to their buddies.

I do not see that behavior in Jim.

In Jim's street racing deal I see Jim playing the part of "Daddy Rich" (with lots of money and naturally a rube), putting down his cash, and at the end of the night the boys shaking their heads about how "that old man took my money".

I really think Jim was a lot more "street smart" about engines, racing, and marketing in his middle/later years in life vs 1964.

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

That both PHR and Cars magazine used factory-provided press photos for the exterior shots, we can’t determine what car each publication was actually driving.

And ..

As the engine shots are not stock shots provided by the same source, it’s quite likely they’re not of the same car in the exterior press photos.

Royal began swapping 421’s from the get-go. It’s what they did. Maybe the engine shots are of one of those? Nocturne blue was not a one-off color.

In today’s terms, Hennessey had a ZR1 in a new Camaro before I ever saw a stock one on the street.

About magazines, in general …

As there are people involved, mistakes will be made. And there will be inconsistencies - particularly when much has been written on the same topic over the course of time ("Did George Washington have baby teeth or wooden teeth when he chopped down the cherry tree?").

I came across an article that has Jim stating that the Blue Car pulled the Red Car home. All others quote him stating the inverse, though. As does his book. And he’ll report same when asked.

There’s another write-up where Mr. Wangers “admits” to the 421 in the red car, though saying he had it installed it after the test. This was years before “officially” coming forward. Perhaps he was “giving in a bit”, because so many had already seen the 421 in the Red Car. I don’t know.

Folks get misquoted sometimes.

In the recent Muscle Car Enthusiast article on the Red Car’s clean-up, even the great Paul Zazarine (RIP) had Scott stating a 421 came out of the Red Car during clean-up. It was a 428 block. If I can tell the difference, Scott sure can. Mistakes happen. He even had me using the word “overwhelming” in a sentence. Not sure that’s ever happened until just now. But it was an excellent, thorough write-up, all the same. Jim Wangers told Paul it was his favorite.

John V. has done an incredible job scouring press and decoding build sheets, which we certainly enjoy and appreciate. And reading Jim’s and Milt’s books will only add to this arsenal of info.

And so …

Without surmising, we know:

The Car and Driver GTO v. GTO test was the brainchild of Jim Wangers. He created it – and there’s simply no single person more integral to it.

David E. bought it. Jim personally spec’d the Red Car, and hand-picked the Blue Car, for the task. He has always maintained that the Red Car was purpose-built for the acceleration portion (even before he copped to the 421), and that the Blue Car was to be for the handling component.

Jim’s known as a hands-on guy, and knew how to spec things - as his competitors in Super Stock and on Woodward would attest. He’s not a mechanical ninny.

The Car and Driver test was a big deal for Jim at the time. And became a bit bigger a deal over the course of time. He may, or may not, recall which car’s option specs were used on Car and Driver’s data page in the magazine. And he may not even care. But rest-assured he’s not forgotten what was driving each one, and why.

There were reasons to keep the 421 on the DL for a while, obviously. Can’t see any point in stretching the truth now that this information has been disclosed, though. I don’t think Jim’s lying.

[SD421]

Hi Tom,
Based on your response and Geeteeohguy's, Im not sure I conveyed my story when I had talked to J. Wangers. I was trying to give him a bad time back for the way he had answered my question in the first place. I was trying to be funny.
I hope that is how my post is read.
Don

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

He could very well have been lied to by Frank R, Milt, and the rest of the guys at Royal prior to the road tests. He was their customer, they were trying to sell a "Royal Bobcat" package and generate more work for the dealership.

Jim wasn't a Royal customer, Tom. He put them in business as a performance entity, and back-door Pontiac engineering outfit.

Was aware of this before there would've been a benefit in making anything up. If you worked for Pontiac or their ad agency, it's also where you got your company car. Jim Wangers set this up for Ace.

Don't think Milt arrived at Royal until just after the Car and Driver test?

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Jim wasn't a Royal customer, Tom. He put them in business as a performance entity, and back-door Pontiac engineering outfit.

Was aware of this before there would've been a benefit in making anything up. If you worked for Pontiac or their ad agency, it's also where you got your company car. Jim Wangers set this up for Ace.

Don't think Milt arrived at Royal until just after the Car and Driver test?

Milt says in his book that he wasnt allowed to see the motor in the C&D car when it would come in for work. Either Brumfield would shut the hood if Milt would go to talk to him or a sheet/cover would be place over the engine so no prying eyes could see it.

Don

[Tom Vaught]

Tenney, Don's post about Jim's comment in 2008 tells me one thing:

1) That is the first time I have heard of Jim swearing in public.

2) Jim Butler would have nothing to do with people who had trash mouths and Jim Butler did a lot of business with Jim Wangers.

3) Not saying that Jim is a Saint or never used a cuss word or heard on, (especially down on 12th street) but Jim does not strike me as stupid or a bold faced lie type of guy. Now Ram Air Roger (;>)

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Tenney

Jim wasn't a Royal customer, Tom. He put them in business as a performance entity, and back-door Pontiac engineering outfit.

Was aware of this before there would've been a benefit in making anything up. If you worked for Pontiac or their ad agency, it's also where you got your company car. Jim Wangers set this up for Ace.

Don't think Milt arrived at Royal until just after the Car and Driver test?

I do lots of work with a former RACE shop (Road Race) in Livonia, Michigan. They do a lot of prototype fabrication stuff for us. Install engines, chassis work, water jet work, machining work, design work.

No different that Jim Wangers setting up Royal Pontiac as a place for people in GM to get stuff done, be it company car work, fab work, engine work etc.

I sign the paperwork that approves the payments get paid. THERE IS NO DOUBT IN ANYONE'S MIND THAT I AM THE "CUSTOMER" AND WHAT I WANT HAPPENS OR I GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

Royal WAS a Pontiac Dealership before Jim selected them for his special jobs and the other perks they received. No different than the company I deal with.

I don't rubber-stamp anything but at the same time I am not standing there looking over their shoulders when they are building the parts for me. I want it done, I leave it to them as Master Fabricators to make it happen based on my designs/wishes. I am the customer!

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by SD421

Milt says in his book that he wasnt allowed to see the motor in the C&D car when it would come in for work. Either Brumfield would shut the hood if Milt would go to talk to him or a sheet/cover would be place over the engine so no prying eyes could see it.

Don

Indeed, Don. It was on the DL even internally.

[SD421]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Tenney, Don's post about Jim's comment in 2008 tells me one thing:

1) That is the first time I have heard of Jim swearing in public.

2) Jim Butler would have nothing to do with people who had trash mouths and Jim Butler did a lot of business with Jim Wangers.

3) Not saying that Jim is a Saint or never used a cuss word or heard on, (especially down on 12th street) but Jim does not strike me as stupid or a bold faced lie type of guy. Now Ram Air Roger (;>)

Tom Vaught

Tom, from what i can remember those are the words Jim said to me in 1995 not 2008.
Now you have me questioning myself as to whether my memory is correct about what J. Wangers said to me.
Granted he might have been upset that I had interrupted him while he was watching the drag racing going on. I dont know.
I do know that J. Wangers did not correct me in 2008 about what I remember him saying to me in 1995 because he didnt say to me, " Thats not true because I dont swear."

Im NOT questioning J.Wangers character. I can understand his secrecy and the drama it would have created because if he had admitted to me in 1995 that it was a 421 and to just keep my mouth shut Im not sure I could have done that. : )
Im just relaying, (in my mind) a funny story that happened to me in conversing with J. Wangers.

Don

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by SD421

Even now the stories get muddied on this thread:

I can remember in 1995 at the Tiger Run but up at the Madras dragstrip, here I am 24 years old & I go up to Wangers while he's standing against a fence watching the cars go by and I ask him if the C&D GTO really had a 421 in it or not. Pete McCarthy had previously told me it was a 421.

So Wangers not even missing a beat or even stopping to look at me says,

"Goddam it, how many times do I have to tell you people it was a 389 in that car!!!"

So fast forward to the 2008 Tiger Run, now Im 37 and Im again talking to Wangers at his book signing table but with Dave Anderson & my dad is next to me. I tell Wangers the story of what he said to me back in 1995 and how after reading his book, I came across his admittance to the C&D Goat having a 421 in it and how I had reacted by saying to myself,

" That Son of a *itch lied to me!!! LOL

Don

I see two sets of swearing. That is what I was personally going by and responding to.

Tom Vaught