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#121
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I suppose you could send the gears off to a heat treater.
And what would happen if we had the chain cryo treated? What about cryo on all three?? |
#122
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https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...25#post6072425 https://www.bopengineering.com/high_...ac_mag_3.shtml Last edited by abefromen; 12-13-2019 at 08:43 PM. |
#123
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"...I have one of those HY-VO chains........no markings on it anywhere..."
Are those small washers on the outside of the connecting links ? This article shows a good pic of the outer links of the BW HY-VO chain. This chain is used in Toyoto vehicles, & made in Japan. https://www.borgwarner.com/newsroom/...yota-and-lexus Last edited by ponyakr; 12-13-2019 at 10:25 PM. |
#124
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__________________
"No replacement for displacement!" GTOAA--https://www.gtoaa.org/ |
The Following User Says Thank You to 1968GTO421 For This Useful Post: | ||
#125
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yes
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#126
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Below is the chain that was in the Spotts ad. It appears to also have the washers, just like the chain from the Duckworth set has.
So, did this Pontiac chain ever have a part number & source of supply ? Here's some other Duckworth chains. None look like yours. https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fro...chain&_sacat=0 What is the part number on the Duckworth box your chain came in ? Do any of you guys have a current catalog/listing of Borg Warner and/or Morse timing chains that might show a Pontiac chain ? Looks like Duckworth was once known as the Baldwin-Duckworth Chain Corp. https://www.google.com/search?q=bald...hrome&ie=UTF-8 Last edited by ponyakr; 12-13-2019 at 11:25 PM. |
#127
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Came in a green/yellow Duckworth Timing Chain box PN C350.
Bought it online a while back so can't be certain of it's original source or if it's even the correct chain for the box as like you stated, none of the other Duckworth brand chains look anything like it. It does fit the standard sprockets ok after test fitting to my engine. Not sure if I will use it or a NOS Morse chain I have. |
#128
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Back from the PRI show and I did talk to my direct contact and engineer at Cloyes Gear. I mentioned there was a very long thread about timing sets for the Pontiac engines. Cloyes has been owned by American Axle for a few years now. They have separated their operation into OE/OE replacement division and Performance division. My contact is involved in the performance product. For the kind of engine builds most on this forum are building, he recommends using the double roller chain and sprocket sets in the performance line. The flat link sets are OE/OE replacements and would be fine for stock rebuilds, stock valve spring pressures and stock type camshaft profiles. For any performance build, they would like to have customers utilize the performance product catalog. Billet or cast sprockets, they are all heat treated. For Pontiac, they all use IWIS true roller timing chains all sourced in Germany. Every single performance set is hand "qualified" on a center to center fixture to make sure it's assembled length is +-.002". Short chains are available for engines that have been line honed many times. Several people have mentioned RollMaster brand sets and that they use IWIS chains as well. That is true, but each manufacturer makes their own sprockets. The IWIS ultimate Z chain, the strongest timing chain available is not available to RollMaster and is proprietary for Cloyes. Cloyes makes all the components in house in Paris AK, a factory they own. (except chains). I will mention that Cloyes supports the Pontiac Hobby by having by far the widest coverage for our engines and is an American company if that matters to anyone anymore. Best of luck with your choices. Much like "who has the best oil", we will never be able to all agree on this one!
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#129
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Would be nice if you could find out from your contact who makes the C350 chains, which currently come in the Cloyes C3007K Pontiac sets, and where they are made..
The sprockets have SA on 'em. So, as mentioned, I assume those are made by S.A. Gear. Maybe your contact guy could come up with this info ??? I'm not interested in the double roller sets, at all. The big power, roller cam guys can discuss all those. The stock type sets should be plenty good for most street Pontiac engines, which use common HFT cams & reasonable spring pressure. Probably been many thousands of 400hp+ Pontiac engines do just fine without having a double roller set. BUT, if the CURRENTLY supplied chains are inferior Chinese junk, then obviously, that could cause a problem. So, does anybody here know of any reliable source of info, to find out exactly who makes the current Pontiac C350 chains, & where they are made ? |
#130
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No, that's not what I asked when I started the thread. I did not say "low end".
__________________
Anybody else on this planet campaign a M/T hemi Pontiac for eleven seasons? ... or has built a record breaking DOHC hemi four cylinder Pontiac? ... or has driven a couple laps of Nuerburgring with Tri-Power Pontiac power?(back in 1967) |
#131
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This doesn't sound good. BW needed to unload $800M of asbestos-related obligations somehow tied to Morse TEC. If this is the division that makes chains, how would this affect their business?
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/borgwarner-divests-borgwarner-morse-tec-to-enstar |
#132
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The term "low end" was mine, not yours. I lumped all original style as "low end" based on cost and the implied performance and durability of "stock" vs "performance". Could you clarify why you were looking for a Morse-branded inverted-link style set? Do you think a Morse-branded original style might be as suitable for performance use as the high-cost double roller sets? |
#133
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I freakin love this place, no where else would a timing chain thread go to six pages
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#134
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As I eluded to early on, it is IMPOSSIBLE to know how good any of this stuff is simply because these engines aren't getting enough miles put on them to wear out or stretch the lowest end fixed roller/cast sprocket imported double roller set, let alone the highest end true roller/German chain/billet sprocket/9 keyway deal. So it really doesn't matter what you put on one of these engines unless you plan on putting 20,000-30,000 miles on it every year. I personally believe that even the cheapest timing chain set from the catalog will go at least 25,000 miles in one of these engines w/o issue at any power level or spring pressures being used.
In all the years of doing this I have yet to see a timing set completely fail on any of my engines. The only one I had troubles with was the Rollmaster and it did fine for quite a few years before getting so loose it needed to be replaced. So bottom line I really don't think it's something to worry about and I've outfitted most of the Pontiac engines built here with the Rollmaster simply because they are readily available and make moving the cam around very easy. My own engines get the stock type sets with the hardened metal sprockets and MORSE chains. I know they are super strong and will go tens of thousands of miles w/o issue. I proved that back with my 428 build done around 1989. It was in the Ventura 10 years and at that time I was using the car for daily transportation and racing it just about every weekend. I lived in the South so we had a pretty long racing season. I ended up putting around 70,000 miles on the car in that time period and the engine was removed shortly after I moved to PA and replaced it with a 455. Far as I know it's still out there getting it done as the new owner doesn't put 1000 miles a year on the GTO he installed it in. I have one additional comment to make about Cloyes. One of the early timing sets I bought came with a chain that said JAPAN on every 5 or 6th link. It was an early set with the dark heat treated metal gears, but obviously they did some outsourcing if/as needed to keep up with production or save money on production costs. I have no idea how good or bad the JAPAN Morse style chain is, but since I have a few of the USA made ones left I'll probably use one of those chains instead........FWIW.......Cliff
__________________
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a Veteran! https://cliffshighperformance.com/ 73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile), |
#135
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"... a chain that said JAPAN on every 5 or 6th link..."
Back when I was a kid, most of the cheap stuff said "Made in Japan". But, over time, all that changed. In recent years, the cheap stuff has come from China, Taiwan, & a few other countries. Think of what a large portion of today's cars & trucks were Japanese brands. And how about motorcycles, 3-wheelers, 4-wheelers, ATV's, etc. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ticle27100187/ https://www.google.com/search?q=when...hrome&ie=UTF-8 https://hiconsumption.com/best-japanese-motorcycles/ https://www.about-china-atvs.com/compare-atvs.html Last edited by ponyakr; 12-14-2019 at 10:41 AM. |
#136
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#137
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"...with a camshaft under .425" net lift..."
Another term I don't understand. So, are you referring to lobe lift, or lift at the valve ? The RAIV engines had over .500 lift at the valve. I assume they came with the same timing sets that other 400's came with, didn't they ? Main failures I remember reading about were the cast rods. As for timing sets, the only problems I remember reading about were the plastic teeth on the cam sprockets. Mine failed at less than 50k miles, in my '69 RA3. |
#138
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#139
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Yeah, I suppose it's always pretty much the same. Guys with the extra dollars to spend, will buy & recommend parts they hopefully can't break, regardless of their price.
When it comes to pistons, many won't consider anything less that $800 Ross customs. Some may go with other brands that are even higher. For cams, many insist on high dollar rollers with the highest priced lifters & rockers available. For rods & cranks, many insist on the best USA made products. Absolutely won't consider anything made in China, for their engine. Many will consider only one brand alum head, which must be ported by one particular person. Many must have an aftermarket block, even if a factory block would be plenty strong for their power level. And, I could go on & on. Anyhow, that's why lots of guys spend $15k-$20k for a Pontiac street engine, and some even more. Then there are us low budget guys. We can't even spend $10k for an engine. But, we'd still like to have a Pontiac powered car, with decent below 5000 rpm power. It doesn't have to be indestructible. But, we'd like for it to stay together for a reasonable amount of time. And, we don't wanna pay twice the price for a part, when a part that cost half as much will work just as well, IN OUR ENGINE. Just because a part won't last in a 6000+ rpm race engine, don't mean it won't last for the life of a street engine, that seldom, if ever, goes past 5000 rpm. Cast rods are a good example of this. I raced several cast rod 455 bracket engines. They never went past 5500, cause that's where the rev limiter was set. If I'd let 'em go to 6000 rpm, it's very likely that some of the rods would have failed. So, for long stroke engines that will go past 6000 rpm, on a regular basis, good forged rods are a MUST, not just insurance. For a max 6000 rpm street 400, $800 Ross pistons would work just fine. But, cheaper Speed Pro forged pistons, should be plenty strong. I assume there have been thousands of street & strip Pontiac engines built using TRW/Speed Pro forged pistons. Yes, the high dollar pistons are lighter & maybe even stronger, & have floating pins. But, for the low budget guys, that extra $400 can be used for forged rods, or cam, lifters, springs, or carb, or headers, or etc, etc. So, IMO, if a $30 timing set will last for the life of my engine, even if I had to replace the chain a time or 2, why should I pay $100 or more for a timing set, I don't really need. Most of those chains will stretch, too. Now, if I had unlimited funds, sure, buy parts better than I should ever need. Lots of guys here just don't seem to understand that many street guys are also low budget guys, who can't afford the high end parts, just to have a little insurance. Now, if a guy wanted a rod recommendation for his 455 engine. which he was gonna wind to 6000 rpm, on a regular basis, it wouldn't be a good idea to recommend cast rods. Maybe, it might be a good idea to recommend suitable parts on different price levels, beginning with the lowest priced item that would work good for the build, then mention possible upgrades, if budget allows. But lots of guys just blast any lower priced part, saying it's foolish to buy anything less than the high dollar part, even if the lower priced part has proven to be OK, over many years.. As with most every Pontiac subject, opinions differ. Last edited by ponyakr; 12-14-2019 at 08:21 PM. |
#140
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I agree with everything you put in that post ponyakr, we all have a budget. We all have decide where we can save some money, what the true end use will be, what the car's worth, how much it will be driven or raced. Many, many factors. The 62 Catalina I have right now is a perfect example of the choices people make for THEIR needs. My Catalina is truly beautiful, near perfect chrome and trim, fantastic show quality paint, a super nice interior. But that is where the previous owners priorities were. When I bought it, it looked great under the hood, nice paint, tri-power standing tall. But the "freshly rebuilt, non-numbers matching 455" was complete junk. It burned a quart of oil every 200 miles, felt like it had about 200 HP, and was generally miserable. Idled great, cruises fine, very little smoke unless under heavy throttle. Good enough for the cruise-ins and car shows. 4-speed was in the same condition, noisy as hell, but worked. Looked great from the outside. Rear end, same deal, completely worn out. I just can't own a car like that, many can. As far as spending unnecessary $ on engine parts, I tend to like to do things once and then not have to worry about them ever again in a street car. If I don't have the money for the parts I want, I just save up and wait til I do. I have been gathering parts to rebuild the above engine for 2 years. I will use the best parts I can afford. In general, you get what you pay for. As long as the owner doesn't expect $800.00 forged piston performance from an $8.00 Badger cast piston, there is no problem. On topic with timing chains, it is unreasonable to expect a generic E-bay Pontiac timing set for $19.00 to perform like an $80.00 Cloyes True roller set.
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