[triathlonx13]

I like what you think.

.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

I have Hot Rod issues from the late 60's with Pontiac OHC V-8's and the 6 cylinder sprint engine with "3" valves per cylinder. Designed by Pontiac engineers at Pontiac................. and built. Before most of the posters were born on this forum. LOL.

Just never made it into production because of the Government car and HP wars of the early 70's.

[Sirrotica]

I had those same magazines Dude, and they got lost over the years , but I still remember those awesome pictures. Those articles came out when I was just beginning to drive, the cammer multi valve heads, the blown OHC 6, and of course the hemi headed and beautiful 427 modular hemi............

Ahhhhhhh what could have been, nobody else would have had a chance, at least for a few years til they caught up. Pontiac in the late 60s could have been the hemi was in the mid 60s to motorsports. The cammer heads fit the current at the time, Stratostreak block and of course the modular was from a clean sheet of paper no ties to the Stratostreak, fresh, very advanced for the time, engineering.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Just finish the idea of the 1970 427 Hemi and be done with it.
Make some of those heads and the rest of the parts needed to bolt onto a IA2 or MR1 and you could call it a Pontiac.
Heck go DOHC while you are at it.
If someone wanted to stretch a set of Tigers and block one could call it a Pontiac long block engine.
It might not be a completely traditional engine but why limit yourself.
When Lynn moves his bores around we all will still think of it as a Pontiac.
I still say build something around the 1970 427 Hemi. No one could not call it a Pontiac. that engine had a RAV crank, RAV rods and RAV exhaust spacing. It was a Pontiac.
I know a guy who says a few running engines did make it out. Said they had the big bolts running down the outside and everything. He told me a carb version was in a bird and another in a crate.
I have never gotten him to send me the proof.
It would kind of be the Pontiac Holy Grail.
Bore spacing shmore spacing, shorten the deck, go 4 valves and run it.
Heads like the HP and Tiger are just the kind of things had Pontiac would have made had they not gotten killed off in the early 70s. Had the factory been allowed to do what they wanted we would have seen things like that.
The parts we see now are just people doing on their own what they thought "should" have happened.
What other long dead engine make has such die hard nut jobs as to stick their necks out to try and make this stuff happen.
People doing things on their own that it used to take a corporation to get done.

That engine never made it past the clay/wood model stage. If it had, we would have already read about it here. When DeLorean left for Chevrolet in 1970, that was it for the experimental non-production stuff at Pontiac. It's a miracle the 455-SD ever made it into production and probably the only reason it did was because it borrowed so much from the R.A. IV and early 70's HO round port programs. One of the engineers involved with the R.A. V program (his name escapes me right now) is an aquaintance/friend with Tom Vaught (or at least he was a few years back if memory serves). If any of this engine ever saw the light of day, we would have read about it here from Tom, this gentleman engineer, or someone else that knows him. It's nice to dream about "shoulda, coulda, woulda" though.

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Why not just build a tunnel port ford and paint it pontiac blue???

give 'em time!!!

[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

That engine never made it past the clay/wood model stage. If it had, we would have already read about it here. When DeLorean left for Chevrolet in 1970, that was it for the experimental non-production stuff at Pontiac. It's a miracle the 455-SD ever made it into production and probably the only reason it did was because it borrowed so much from the R.A. IV and early 70's HO round port programs. One of the engineers involved with the R.A. V program (his name escapes me right now) is an aquaintance/friend with Tom Vaught (or at least he was a few years back if memory serves). If any of this engine ever saw the light of day, we would have read about it here from Tom, this gentleman engineer, or someone else that knows him. It's nice to dream about "shoulda, coulda, woulda" though.

Actually they lowered the hp rating, compression at a real low rpm for the SD. Thus getting by the feds. that's and the design passed emissions. Remember that Chevy still had the 454 in pass cars till 74 too. Had a 74 Lagoon 454 maroon & white. Nice ride and 16 mpg.
The gas prices and recession of late 74 put a crimp on all big car and big engine development.

The early 70's around 73/74; economy, Government tree hugger physiology and Insurance companies killed the Muscle cars. Period.

[Dragncar]

Nell was his name, Tom Nell I think.
The SD 455 was Pontiacs last act of defiance. The engine was supposed to come out in 1971 but at 10-1 CR. They did cast some 90cc SD455 heads down to the pushrod tubes. Dan Whittmore had his hands on a set once. It would have shredded the 454 LS6. Think about it. 10-1, forged pistons, forged rods, 4 bolt RAV block, RAIV cam and valvetrain with the good intake and exhaust and the 800+cfm Q jet.
But insurance issues and Pontiac had big problems with the 470HP 10-1, cast piston, cast rod 455 ( I have one of those engines, traded it for a 69 2 bolt 400!) dealt it a blow. Customers would run regular gas in them and break the pistons. They spent a lot of money on comebacks. Whittmore worked in a Pontiac dealership at the time.
The OHC 6 was the leftover R&D from what Pontiac really wanted to do. A OHC 428, Chevy would never allow it. Do not get me started on the 2x4 carb RAV 428, the RAVI. Pontiac did build some of those intakes, one of which was melted in a famous barn fire. The 5140 4.25x 3.25 forged crank I have could very well have come from that program.
The man who told me about the complete 427 SOHC Hemi in a crate is not a fly by night fellow. He owns a Pontiac shop. Sort of a restoration and race shop. Its in Washington state, its Super Duty Firerbirds or something like that. His name is Dan, I still have his number. I asked him specific questions about the engine down to the 9/16 bolts going down the outside of the block. The man told me thats what it was and even how the carb version engine ran in the Firerbird.
Nell still has a running 428 SOHC engine in a car Pontiac gave to him.

[Brian Baker]

Thank you !!! Tom Nell is his name.

[greggutknecht]

Ya Dragncar Dan was telling me the story once about overhead cam motor.It would be nice to use those heads as a base design for a race head.

[PONTIAC DUDE]

The OHC 6 cylinder Firebird was quicker at the track then the 400 in 67 heavier bigger cars, but people couldn't get their hands around a 6 cylinder from the factory running with the V-8 so sales were pushed towards the 400. Gotta remember that mid 14's was quick.................. from the factory back in the day.

I have to dig those late 60's mags out and scan the pics. Olds was really going nuts to back then.

[greggutknecht]

The quad4 cylinder head olds used on the 4 cylinders closely resembles the 4 valve heads they were working on back in the day.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

Nell was his name, Tom Nell I think.
The SD 455 was Pontiacs last act of defiance. The engine was supposed to come out in 1971 but at 10-1 CR. They did cast some 90cc SD455 heads down to the pushrod tubes. Dan Whittmore had his hands on a set once. It would have shredded the 454 LS6. Think about it. 10-1, forged pistons, forged rods, 4 bolt RAV block, RAIV cam and valvetrain with the good intake and exhaust and the 800+cfm Q jet.
But insurance issues and Pontiac had big problems with the 470HP 10-1, cast piston, cast rod 455 ( I have one of those engines, traded it for a 69 2 bolt 400!) dealt it a blow. Customers would run regular gas in them and break the pistons. They spent a lot of money on comebacks. Whittmore worked in a Pontiac dealership at the time.
The OHC 6 was the leftover R&D from what Pontiac really wanted to do. A OHC 428, Chevy would never allow it. Do not get me started on the 2x4 carb RAV 428, the RAVI. Pontiac did build some of those intakes, one of which was melted in a famous barn fire. The 5140 4.25x 3.25 forged crank I have could very well have come from that program.
The man who told me about the complete 427 SOHC Hemi in a crate is not a fly by night fellow. He owns a Pontiac shop. Sort of a restoration and race shop. Its in Washington state, its Super Duty Firerbirds or something like that. His name is Dan, I still have his number. I asked him specific questions about the engine down to the 9/16 bolts going down the outside of the block. The man told me thats what it was and even how the carb version engine ran in the Firerbird.
Nell still has a running 428 SOHC engine in a car Pontiac gave to him.

Yes, Tom Nell was the Ram Air V Engineer. He also was the Turbo 400 Trans Hop-up Expert. He worked with Herb Adams On Herb's SCCA 64 Tempest, on the 366 NASCAR Grand Am, and heavily with Arnie Beswick years before that.

That being said, Tom Nell was not given a SOHC Engine by Pontiac. You are mixing your stories. Malcolm MacKeller, The Chief Engineer at Pontiac, was given a complete OHC Tri-Power engine when he retired from Pontiac.

Most people now know about the very few Aluminum Block castings Pontiac did. A friend in Detroit at one time had all 5 raw castings in his garage. People in the Royal GTO club will back that story up. My point is there probably is a complete 427 aluminum SOHC Hemi engine out there somewhere. Today I would say, much more likely vs what we knew 20 years ago. There may actually be more that one as my old Chief Engineer who cam up with the Ford Modular engine specifically said that he copied a lot of the design features on that engine. How would he know all of that info from a basic photo in a Hot Rod Magazine? Ford uses very long head bolts by the way, (:>)

Tom Vaught

ps The 455 SD would have survived IF Martin J Caserio (Mr A/C Sparkplug) had not been appointed head of Pontiac. Casario killed the 455 SD program.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Yes, Tom Nell was the Ram Air V Engineer. He also was the Turbo 400 Trans Hop-up Expert. He worked with Herb Adams On Herb's SCCA 64 Tempest, on the 366 NASCAR Grand Am, and heavily with Arnie Beswick years before that.

That being said, Tom Nell was not given a SOHC Engine by Pontiac. You are mixing your stories. Malcolm MacKeller, The Chief Engineer at Pontiac, was given a complete OHC Tri-Power engine when he retired from Pontiac.

Most people now know about the very few Aluminum Block castings Pontiac did. A friend in Detroit at one time had all 5 raw castings in his garage. People in the Royal GTO club will back that story up. My point is there probably is a complete 427 aluminum SOHC Hemi engine out there somewhere. Today I would say, much more likely vs what we knew 20 years ago. There may actually be more that one as my old Chief Engineer who cam up with the Ford Modular engine specifically said that he copied a lot of the design features on that engine. How would he know all of that info from a basic photo in a Hot Rod Magazine? Ford uses very long head bolts by the way, (:>)

Tom Vaught

ps The 455 SD would have survived IF Martin J Caserio (Mr A/C Sparkplug) had not been appointed head of Pontiac. Casario killed the 455 SD program.

Not so killed Tom McCarty racing picked up the ball......who would have thought 711HP with a 9 to one engine with 188 cc intake runners all OEM castings and an OEM Q-jet. We are going for 730HP on the next go around. It was so good...it just wont go away. Just think if we got updated castings like all the other brands got! Or maybe a Super Charger?

[Dragncar]

Tom, I did get my stories crossed. Is Mr. MacKeller still kicking. I heard he drove it around the block once a month.
I am telling you guys, this guy named Dan told me he knew of at least 2 complete 427SOHC Pontiac Hemis. One was a injected one in a crate that he himself had. And the other was in a running first get bird. But it had a intake and carb.
Dan told me it was not unusual for this stuff to get "back doored" at the time. If it did not it was going to the scrap heap and do you think all those engineers wanted their babies in the melting pot.
I heard some stories about that 366 with RAIV heads on the Grand Am. The RAV heads were just to big to make power on the small engine but the RAIVs worked real well with the Warrior. That intake was designed for that engine and circle track racing. It was first made of fiberglass. It was designed with a small plenum and the amount of spacers would be added as needed. It was the first of any aftermarket single plane intakes for any engine. Designed by PMD and built by Doug Nash. They took it to a mid size NASCAR track and they were within a few tenths of the track record during hot laps.
The NASCAR officials "good ol boyed" it off the track with a tape measure.They wanted nothing to do with it.

[Brian Baker]

Mac MacKellar's engine is a 421-OHC, and is installed in his '63 Grand Prix. Wallace has some pics on his site which I think are from a magazine article published 10+ years ago,

http://www.wallaceracing.com/421-ohc-gp.html

My jury is still out on the 427-SOHC. Some of the engineers with Pontiac's engine program during that era (including MacKellar) are still alive and yet there has been no evidence or testimony provided that Pontiac ever made a running prototype of this engine.

The 366 engine that David Pearson competed with was plagued with problems, but was never disallowed to compete. The car that was black balled was the '73 Grand Am that Herb Adams and company showed up with at Daytona. Someone in NASCAR either didn't like that car, or had a hard on for Adams and company. NASCAR kept finding fault with the cars chassis and design...rumor has it one of the issues was with the ball joints used in the car, which were the same as the other teams, but they were made to prove it and just ran out of time before qualifying.

[Brian Baker]

Herb Adams Grand Am...a BEAUTIFUL race car.

http://www.tachrev.com/GrandAm1973Nascar.htm

I would love to see someone recreate this, but do it right and not screw it up by missing important details and putting modern parts on it (like I have seen on so many Arnie tribute cars).