[Tiger Paw]

Chris, I don't think anybody is giving you a hard time. John and yourself are highly respected (at least by me). Maybe I should've said excitedly awaiting your results.

[GTO Dan]

Originally Posted by Tiger Paw

Chris, I don't think anybody is giving you a hard time. John and yourself are highly respected (at least by me). Maybe I should've said excitedly awaiting your results.

X 2

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko

Man this place is brutal. Can someone show me an engine builder who has never failed? If you can, then you will show me a guy who has never grown or learned a thing.

Failures are what build. Afraid to fail, then don't do it. If you want an engine builder who has no ability to fail, well... I can't even comment. There's no such thing.

It is brutal, but when we are talking about the kind of money some of these builds cost anymore there are very high expectations. Not to mention a guy wanting to go racing and get the results there promised. Hope you get my point --

[Chris Uratchko]

Originally Posted by Tiger Paw

Chris, I don't think anybody is giving you a hard time. John and yourself are highly respected (at least by me). Maybe I should've said excitedly awaiting your results.

I didn't think that was the case I was just making a general statement. I cringe when I see engine builders get beat on because I know how things go in this business.

[Chris Uratchko]

Originally Posted by cgeise

It is brutal, but when we are talking about the kind of money some of these builds cost anymore there are very high expectations. Not to mention a guy wanting to go racing and get the results there promised. Hope you get my point --

I get it.... but money does not have anything to do with results. Weird as that sounds. Multi million dollar business has the same type of issues as small business does.

You guys don't think people paying 80-100k on a racing engine, don't experience significant problems do you? On the contrary....

This stuff is built by people. I don't know any perfect people. If you find one other than Jesus let me know I will send him all my work.

[JSPONT]

Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko

I didn't think that was the case I was just making a general statement. I cringe when I see engine builders get beat on because I know how things go in this business.

My last build the engine builder did a good job, My tune was off and I hurt it. Some guys would blame the engine builder. When it comes to power adders, bet your ass there is a learning curve on the motor. It does not matter if it was a $5000.00 or $30000.00 build, a bad tune can junk either.
If you expect a motor to run its best 1st time out or even 5th time out your dreaming.
It is always easier to blame someone else. I took it as learning experience. Thank God it is not costing me much fix.

[cgeise]

Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko

I get it.... but money does not have anything to do with results. Weird as that sounds. Multi million dollar business has the same type of issues as small business does.

You guys don't think people paying 80-100k on a racing engine, don't experience significant problems do you? On the contrary....

This stuff is built by people. I don't know any perfect people. If you find one other than Jesus let me know I will send him all my work.

Let me rephrase this It is all about how the issues if any are resolved and handled. better ???

[7T2]

Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko

Man this place is brutal.

it seems you have experienced a 'shot over the bow"..

walk a mile in my shoes, bud, before you complain about the paparazzi
jim

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Let me rephrase this It is all about how the issues if any are resolved and handled. better ???

I understand where you are coming from....

[Badbird69]

Chris,

We are imperfect men working on imperfect machinery. I get that. But if I can't get perfection, I at least expect honesty. My beef was not with a builder. It was with a cylinder head and intake specialist who promised to take our program “to the next level”. He had a good track record and talked a big game. What I realized too late, after months and months of lies and excuses, was that he sub-contracted everything out. Therefore, his “problem vendors” became my problem too. The products, as delivered, looked like a high school shop project gone wrong. I couldn't believe it. Everything leaked and nothing fit. Sent it all back. Round two was better, but still leaked and didn't fit. We still had to repair everything we got. To top it off, we lost 60 horsepower on the dyno.

I understand there can be set backs and delays. I can deal with that. But lying to your customer month after month and then delivering shoddy workmanship will eventually come back to bite you. It is difficult to make good decisions with bad information. Had he been truthful from the beginning, we would have gone another direction instead of losing two seasons. Unfortunately, stories like this are all too common in this industry. So when I find honest and skilled craftsmen to work with, I stick with them.

Dick Fulton

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Badbird69

Chris,

We are imperfect men working on imperfect machinery. I get that. But if I can't get perfection, I at least expect honesty. My beef was not with a builder. It was with a cylinder head and intake specialist who promised to take our program “to the next level”. He had a good track record and talked a big game. What I realized too late, after months and months of lies and excuses, was that he sub-contracted everything out. Therefore, his “problem vendors” became my problem too. The products, as delivered, looked like a high school shop project gone wrong. I couldn't believe it. Everything leaked and nothing fit. Sent it all back. Round two was better, but still leaked and didn't fit. We still had to repair everything we got. To top it off, we lost 60 horsepower on the dyno.

I understand there can be set backs and delays. I can deal with that. But lying to your customer month after month and then delivering shoddy workmanship will eventually come back to bite you. It is difficult to make good decisions with bad information. Had he been truthful from the beginning, we would have gone another direction instead of losing two seasons. Unfortunately, stories like this are all too common in this industry. So when I find honest and skilled craftsmen to work with, I stick with them.

Dick Fulton

Well said!

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Badbird69

What I realized too late, after months and months of lies and excuses, was that he sub-contracted everything out. Therefore, his “problem vendors” became my problem too. The products, as delivered, looked like a high school shop project gone wrong. I couldn't believe it. Dick Fulton

Would you not agree that there are head suppliers who do not cast up their own heads?
Edelbrock (and their foundry) being the exception.

Would you agree that the same head suppliers are not manufacturing their own valves, springs, pushrods, etc. or camshafts that go with the cylinder heads that they paid someone else to make for them?

So my point is, unless you are like Pontiac Jack and building a lot of the "one off" parts yourself you are "sub-contracting" no differently vs the other guy in your statement.

I sub-contract work every day at work. Designers design the parts, Vendors make the parts, EBU (Engine Build Up) technicians build the engines, Dyno technicians test the engines, and Dyno Data Analysis Engineers present the data to management. Turbo Manufacturers design and supply the parts for the programs.

I work with the different people and expect good designs, good hardware, good engine builds, good dyno tests, and then listen while the Dyno Data Analysis Engineers present the data.

But you have to know how to explain what the goals are to all of the different people so that they can do their jobs. You weed out the bad designs hopefully early on.

"WHO SHOT PETER" means nothing Dick at the end of the day. What matters is what do I have to do to fix this issue as the final "Knowledge Expert" of what I really want.

Only YOU know what your really want. You made the decision to go down a given path.
50% of the blame is shared by you for each one of the steps.

Everyone makes mistakes, let it go. No need to throw someone under the bus because the testing did not go as expected or in as timely a manner as expected.

You just don't recommend that person in the future.

Question "What do you think of this guys work?" Answer "I would personally go somewhere else"

If the listener can't figure out that reply then they are not paying attention.

Tom V.

[Rusty4cyl]

Originally Posted by Badbird69

Chris,

We are imperfect men working on imperfect machinery. I get that. But if I can't get perfection, I at least expect honesty. My beef was not with a builder. It was with a cylinder head and intake specialist who promised to take our program “to the next level”. He had a good track record and talked a big game. What I realized too late, after months and months of lies and excuses, was that he sub-contracted everything out. Therefore, his “problem vendors” became my problem too. The products, as delivered, looked like a high school shop project gone wrong. I couldn't believe it. Everything leaked and nothing fit. Sent it all back. Round two was better, but still leaked and didn't fit. We still had to repair everything we got. To top it off, we lost 60 horsepower on the dyno.

I understand there can be set backs and delays. I can deal with that. But lying to your customer month after month and then delivering shoddy workmanship will eventually come back to bite you. It is difficult to make good decisions with bad information. Had he been truthful from the beginning, we would have gone another direction instead of losing two seasons. Unfortunately, stories like this are all too common in this industry. So when I find honest and skilled craftsmen to work with, I stick with them.

Dick Fulton

I agree with Dick 100%

[cgeise]

First off Tom you get paid by a big company to do it all - if it fails you just spend more of there money and go back the next day to spend some more , the rest of us do this out of our own pocket and do it for the passion of it all, Unfortunately I experienced the same thing that Dick is talking about, its a double slap in the face -- or more, expense, lies, and deception all at the same time interfering with your ability to enjoy the sport your passionate about. Honesty and integrity play a huge part in this deal -- yes things happen that affect the " performance" side of this whole issue, but after investing a year and a half or even two, and tens of thousands of dollars a customer deserves some semblance of quality and fulfilled expectation's.

[gene simmons]

Originally Posted by cgeise

First off Tom you get paid by a big company to do it all - if it fails you just spend more of there money and go back the next day to spend some more , the rest of us do this out of our own pocket and do it for the passion of it all, Unfortunately I experienced the same thing that Dick is talking about, its a double slap in the face -- or more, expense, lies, and deception all at the same time interfering with your ability to enjoy the sport your passionate about. Honesty and integrity play a huge part in this deal -- yes things happen that affect the " performance" side of this whole issue, but after investing a year and a half or even two, and tens of thousands of dollars a customer deserves some semblance of quality and fulfilled expectation's.

I would agree,good post curt.

[BADDTA]

I thought Tom was done posting in the race section...just can't help himself I guess?

Brian

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by BADDTA

I thought Tom was done posting in the race section...just can't help himself I guess?

Brian

That's what I read here from him, too. It isn't the first time, so I don't take it seriously any more.

Jim

[Chris Uratchko]

Originally Posted by cgeise

Let me rephrase this It is all about how the issues if any are resolved and handled. better ???

For sure!!

[Chris Uratchko]

Originally Posted by Badbird69

Chris,

So when I find honest and skilled craftsmen to work with, I stick with them.

Dick Fulton

Me too. The same goes for the people I work with.

[Aaron Quinton]

Originally Posted by Chris Uratchko

Man this place is brutal. Can someone show me an engine builder who has never failed? If you can, then you will show me a guy who has never grown or learned a thing.

Failures are what build. Afraid to fail, then don't do it. If you want an engine builder who has no ability to fail, well... I can't even comment. There's no such thing.

CUTTFMF!