[RocktimusPryme]

As stated, two of my vehicles, my firebird and 64 galaxie as basically in the same boat. Both have the factory front sway bar and no rear sway/anti roll bar.

Whats the biggest bang for the buck? Adding a rear sway bar where one doesn't exist at all? Or replacing the front bar with a bigger/stiffer one?

Side question, Ive heard horror stories of rear bars actually tweaking the rear ends on cars and causing wheel bearing failure. Common issue? Or rarity?

[Verdoro 68]

On my GTO, I felt a way bigger difference from the larger front sway bar. Not sure how the rear bar could have an effect on wheel bearings. Lots of cars came with them after 1970, so they can't be that bad.

[The Champ]

I did both. A 1.25" WS6 bar on the front of my '64 GTO convertible and a factory .875" bar in the rear. Adding the rear bar just really isn't a big expense. Rear bar has been on the car for at least 15 or 20 years with no ill effects. I originally boxed my factory rear arms, but now running BMR units.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by Verdoro 68

On my GTO, I felt a way bigger difference from the larger front sway bar. Not sure how the rear bar could have an effect on wheel bearings. Lots of cars came with them after 1970, so they can't be that bad.

I actually rear that on a Ford forum while looking at options for the 64. Dude claimed the rear bar bent the tubes on for 9". Caused bearing issues due to the bent tube. Only time Ive ever heard of it.

Ill probably eventually do both as well, but because Im looking at bars for two different cars, buying 4 might be a little out of the financial range. So Im basically asking "What order should I do this in?"

[JLMounce]

It's important to note that due to vehicle characteristics, differing designs, suspension systems etc. it's impossible to simply state that "front bar is always better."

Instead lets look at what the sway bar is actually doing. It is adding wheel rate in bump. If you were designing a suspension system for a race car, you build it with the wheel rate you want/need in the spring shock and tire package. It's not typically needed or desired to setup a race car with sway bars unless you just can't get to the level of wheel rate needed in the corner without sacrificing grip and handling elsewhere. On a race car, the car is setup without regard to "driver comfort" so that works.

On a street car, nobody wants to be driving around with 800+ lb springs and heavy compression shocks on the street. That'd be fun for all of 5 minutes. But what happens when we need more wheel-rate but not at the expense of driver comfort? This is where the sway bar comes into play. While in a straight line and during most street level driving maneuvers it's either not acting on wheel rate, or it's doing so little enough to not be noticeable.

Pitch the car into a corner however and the bar bends and strains against the opposing suspension parts, adding effective wheel rate on the outboard tire which is carrying the brunt of the load and grip. The stiffer the front bar, the more wheel rate it imparts.

Front and rear bars work on this same principle. So how do you know which one is going to be better if you can only do one? I can tell you on a first gen F-body it's going to be the front, by a wide margin and that's simply because of it's weight distribution, tire sizes and the fact that it's typically undersprung and damped as a result.

There are situations where that can be reversed however. If you've already got a very heavy spring up front and a shock with a lot of compression damping, mixed with a square or forward stagger tire setup, you may run into a situation where you would need more rear bar over more front bar. This is why the suspension is setup first, then the bars are used to tune.

For a leaf spring equipped car, the bar is less necessary as the leaf springs are already connected to each other via the live axle. As the individual sides of the car bump and droop the leaf spring twists at the mounting pads, again adding wheel rate. It's not enough rate for a street car that is going to be seeing a lot of spirited driving, but it is there nonetheless.

So understanding what the bars are doing and where the first gen F-body needs help, it's almost always going to be more advantageous on a budget build to buy the front bar over the rear bar. Ideally on the street you will want to eventually include a rear adjustable bar as well.

I won't even comment on the galaxy since I don't know anything about how it's setup or suspended from the factory. It's likely that you would want the front bar there too, but that's a guess more than anything.

If you're using bars to tune the car's handling characteristics, the rule of thumb is that more front bar will induce over steer and more rear bar will induce under steer. The F-body already has a lot of inherent under steer, so you don't add a rear bar until you've got the front end working better.

[RocktimusPryme]

They are set up basically the same. Front coil rear leaf. The only caveat being 63.5 and 64 use this goofy offset shaft in the front end. One of Fords less than great ideas. You can replace them, but it costs a mint. You basically pay like $200 for a couple of fancy bolts. It was supposed to increase driver comfort, but highway speeds back then were lower. Over 60 mph it starts to become a liability.


But okay, so on a leaf spring car, the front is likely to be more effective. Would the rule of thumb be to put the stiffest thing you can buy up there?


I know there are hollow and solid bars. Any preferred options for the Firebird? The 64 has far fewer options so Ill have to take what I can get.

[JLMounce]

If you're running significantly wider, stickier rubber in the rear, you can use more front bar. If you've got skinnier, old school compound tires in the back, adding more bar up front will increase the car's propensity to oversteer.

I am running the helwig bars of which the front is a hollow 1 1/4". It's a bear to install, but well worth it. I ran the car with just the front bar for a very long time and felt the balance without the rear bar in my setup was actually really good.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

If you're running significantly wider, stickier rubber in the rear, you can use more front bar. If you've got skinnier, old school compound tires in the back, adding more bar up front will increase the car's propensity to oversteer.

I am running the helwig bars of which the front is a hollow 1 1/4". It's a bear to install, but well worth it. I ran the car with just the front bar for a very long time and felt the balance without the rear bar in my setup was actually really good.

I have 275 drag radials in the back of the Firebird. So that probably counts lol.

[JLMounce]

If you're truly concerned about handling in any meaningful way, other than you just want the car to drive a bit better, the drag radials aren't helping you.

Their sidewalls are flexible by design to provide cushion and absorb the shock of a clutch drop, or flashed stall converter and maintain adherence to the road. They provide little support laterally as a result and although the compound is sticky, the tire's distortion in the sidewall does screwy things with the contact patch when it's being pulled sideways.

A big drag radial is counter-productive to getting a car to handle properly. Especially so with a 15" wheel, what's actually happening is that you're using a good bit of the tire's shoulder and sidewall in heavy cornering. There's not a lot of grip there in actuality.

If you're more worries about handling than that hole shot, you'd be better off going to a standard 15" radial. It'll be a smoke show whenever you're on the throttle with 600 ft lbs on tap, but it will handle more predictably. In the 15" wheel with a 26-28" over-all diameter, there's really no way to compromise here. You either sacrifice handling or your sacrifice traction out of the hole.

Once you start looking at modern wheel sizes and the tires that come with them, you can do both. That's not always in somebody's budget however. But my honest suggestion to you is that you probably need to pick what's more important. Other than doing some cost effective things to just make the car drive a little bit better, spending money on sway bars while honestly rocking drag radials in common sizes for these cars is simply money that could be better spent elsewhere.

[RocktimusPryme]

100% honestly, Im more concerned about the big ol Gal that likes to wallow everywhere. The Firebird handles decently now that I rebuilt most of the steering. Or at least it handles like gangbusters compared to what it did before I replaced all the drag links and everything. I wanted to know for both as I plan on adding a bigger bar to both, but I for sure expect to see a bigger difference out of the big Ford.

FWIW with the Firebird I did a sorta modern drag wheel setup on it. Its got a reverse stagger, so the front is a 17" Darkstar with a BFG summer handling tire, while I have the 15" Drag Radials on the back. So while Im not expecting to autocross with the meats in the back, I wanted to setup so it will handle as well as I can make a drag tire car handle.

I got it aligned last year, but ive never been happy with it. It still pulls a little left, but then again I feel like every vehicle I own pulls left. Maybe its the Indiana roads.

So I think my winter project on the bird will be to replace the moog factory type front springs with something like a Global West 1" drop. Add a bigger bar taller ball joints and get it re-aligned.

[71HOT/A]

Not trying to be that guy JLM, but you have it backwards on the sway bar rates. Stiffer front = understeer stiffer rear = oversteer.

[amcmike]

Alignment settings can go a long way to improve handling. The stock settings are designed to be compatible with manual steering, bias-ply tires, and to create understeer... far from performance oriented.

The only way you're going to know about the rear bar, is to get your front setup completely done first. I'd go ahead and do the front bar along with the other changes. Then if it understeers after all that, add the rear bar.

The benefit of the hollow-bar, is they are almost as stiff as the same-size solid, but lighter for less unsprung weight. But to be honest, the First-gen Firebird has limited room, so even the largest isn't all that big compared to later models. If I were to do the upgrade today, I would go with a 1.25" solid bar, to get as much stiffness on the front as possible, and not worry about a couple extra pounds. In the rear, you shouldn't need much stiffness, so a small hollow would be be best.

Also don't forget to check the condition of your subframe bushings. Worn mounts will really make the car feel like it's wallowing through a corner.

[RocktimusPryme]

Subframe bushings are new urethane. Has subframe connectors. I’ve done a lot of the basic items. My control arm bushings are trash. That’s one of the only things I haven’t done, just because it’s a PITA. But when and if I change the coils I’ll do that too.

Has pretty good bilsteins in the front. New but stockish springs that sit a bit too high with the 17s now. All the steering is new save foe the idler arm.

It was aligned once, and it made a big difference. I tried to ask for specific specs but the dude basically cut me off and just said “the computer does it”

He did mention he couldn’t get as much I think caster in as the computer wanted.

[FrankieT/A]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

It was supposed to increase driver comfort, but highway speeds back then were lower. Over 60 mph it starts to become a liability.

Incorrect, speed limits were higher back then.... It was in the seventies that speed limits were lowered to ol' double nickles. It was done to improve fuel economy back in the OPEC days. Thank god they were raised again...In the sixties a lot of highways, not all, the speed limit was 75 MPH and nowhere was it 55 MPH, that was an odd number. Thats why speedo's in the late seventies and eighties only went to 85 MPH. Before that period all speedo's went 120 and higher.

[1965gp]

On my A body I noticed a much bigger improvement with a WS6 bar up front than when I added the rear bar.

[RocktimusPryme]

Originally Posted by FrankieT/A

Incorrect, speed limits were higher back then.... It was in the seventies that speed limits were lowered to ol' double nickles. It was done to improve fuel economy back in the OPEC days. Thank god they were raised again...In the sixties a lot of highways, not all, the speed limit was 75 MPH and nowhere was it 55 MPH, that was an odd number. Thats why speedo's in the late seventies and eighties only went to 85 MPH. Before that period all speedo's went 120 and higher.

I’m not buying that average vehicle speed in 1965 was as high as it is today. Regardless of posted highway limits, I’ll bet that on average a car in 1965 traveled significantly slower than they have since overdrive transmissions became regular equipment. Probably for a multitude of reasons. More multi lane highways and interstates, better equipment, fewer dirt roads etc.

I’m sure you are correct about posted speed limits, but I still think people drove slower then. And the engineers at least thought so too. The common mans car got those goofy offset shafts I mentioned. While the 406 and 427 cars (the ones with NASCAR in mind) Got normal shafts.

[JLMounce]

Originally Posted by 71HOT/A

Not trying to be that guy JLM, but you have it backwards on the sway bar rates. Stiffer front = understeer stiffer rear = oversteer.

Thanks for pointing out my mistake. You're correct, I had that backwards.

[Stuart]

Interestingly enough, some of the aftermarket companies are selling suspension upgrades for 1964 Galaxies these days - sway bars, springs, four link upgrades, etc.

[amcmike]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

My control arm bushings are trash. That’s one of the only things I haven’t done, just because it’s a PITA. But when and if I change the coils I’ll do that too.

It was aligned once, and it made a big difference. I tried to ask for specific specs but the dude basically cut me off and just said “the computer does it”

He did mention he couldn’t get as much I think caster in as the computer wanted.

Maybe good time to upgrade to tubular control arms then. Get ones with delrin bushings and built-in extra caster (then you can aim for 3-5 degrees). The delrin is more expensive, but much smoother ride, as well as improvement in handling, and if you keep them lubricated will probably be the last bushings you'll ever need.

Recommended alignment settings (for radial tires, powersteering, and high performance street).
Caster: As much positive as you can get. (3 or more degrees)
Camber: -1/4 to -1/2 degree
Toe-in: 1/16" to 1/8"

[JLMounce]

I personally like to shoot for 1/16 to 0 toe in a more performance oriented environment. Helps turn in.

I currently run -.8* static camber, 6* positive caster (2* in the lowers) and zero toe.

For track events I’ll setup with about -1.5 static camber and 1/16th toe out.