[RamAirIV28]

funny that, Pontiac tried to phase it out but the dealers protested?

[John V.]

Originally Posted by RamAirIV28

funny that, Pontiac tried to phase it out but the dealers protested?

That's if you believe the story has any truth to it.

Supposedly the Dealers and owners complained that the color looked dull. Supposedly owners took to overbuffing the color in a futile attempt to make the color shine.

Supposedly, the overbuffing ruined the paint, leading to excessive warranty claims of this color only.

Supposedly Pontiac decided to cancel the color because of the excessive warranty claims.

Supposedly the dealers lobbied Pontiac to reinstate the color, which they supposedly did after about 30 days.

If the Dealers thought the color looked dull, why would they lobby to have the color brought back after it was canceled?

If Pontiac experienced excessive warranty claims, why would they agree to bring the color back?

How is it that no documentation exists warning about overbuffing of Sunfire Red cars? Not like the problem would go away for the thousands of cars already built in Sunfire Red even if they permanently canceled the color. Wouldn't you think Pontiac would have tried to mitigate the problem at least by advising the Dealers of the supposed issue?

Nothing about the story made sense to me. That is why I set about trying to discover if there was any nominal 30 day time frame during which no Sunfire Red cars were built.

Will keep tracking the evidence in this thread.

[Pontirag]

befor anybody attributes the gaps in production to the whims of pontiac and the demands of the dealers, consider that some times the factory will stop putting out cars in one color in order to put out cars of another color. I'm not saying anything is or isn't so. But lets try to keep speculation out of the mix.

Did the article say the owners and or dealers were damaging the paint by over buffing it? I cant remember and dont have the article present. If there is documentation regarding the color it would at one point anounce the cancellation of the color, at another point the reinstatement of the color and also at some other point express concern or advise on buffing the paint, It sure would be nice if those documents were made available for all of us to evaluate, They weren't written in latin as well were they?

the scarry thing about "possibilities" narrow as they may be , is that it opens up the oportunity for abuse and speculation like the dual quad myth that keeps getting repeated, and those pesky one off proof of concept cars that keep getting hyped up and popping up like mushrooms from BS in the dark. perhaps when enough witness's to the truth pass on, then the "possibilities" can be repeated enough to become fact. Caveate emptor?

[John V.]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

befor anybody attributes the gaps in production to the whims of pontiac and the demands of the dealers, consider that some times the factory will stop putting out cars in one color in order to put out cars of another color. I'm not saying anything is or isn't so. But lets try to keep speculation out of the mix.

You say let's try to keep speculation out of the mix. I'm all for that, that is why I have been looking to prove that Sunfire Red cars were produced every day of the '64 Model Year. Now you've made a new claim, "that some times the factory will stop putting out cars in one color in order to put out cars of another color." I have never heard of any evidence to support this during the GTO era. Can you give an example or do you have documentation to back this up? Hate to say it, but it sounds like more speculation to me. And it adds nothing to the '64 Sunfire Red data.

Originally Posted by Pontirag

Did the article say the owners and or dealers were damaging the paint by over buffing it? I cant remember and dont have the article present. If there is documentation regarding the color it would at one point anounce the cancellation of the color, at another point the reinstatement of the color and also at some other point express concern or advise on buffing the paint, It sure would be nice if those documents were made available for all of us to evaluate, They weren't written in latin as well were they?

This is a weird thing for you to post. Early in this thread YOU posted about the overbuffing. Here's your post:

Originally Posted by Pontirag

there was an article about a 64 in that color in one of the pontiac mag's.

It seems that this was an initial attempt by GM at a metal flake or metalic paint job.

The warrenty issue was that people were buffing the paint job to the point of damaging it to bring out the metal sparkle.

paint repair at the dealer level was difficult.

It was cancelled but dealer's protested and it was re instated.

I posted the link to the article for you in this post:

Originally Posted by John V.

I believe this is the article you referred to:

http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...o/viewall.html

All I can say is that polychromatic automotive paint was NOT new technology in '64.

That was just a small part of my post. I went on to explain that NO documentation has ever turned up. I believe the reason there is no documentation is because I believe Wanger's made the story up. As I explained earlier in the thread, it is clearly documented that Sunfire Red was NOT an early type of paint technology as Wanger's was quoted as claiming. It would be "easy" if there was PMD documentation to support Wanger's story. Guys HAVE looked and turned up nothing. Proving the story totally bogus is more difficult. Wanger's put the story out there. Only way to disprove it will be by physical evidence, actual cars built every week of the Model Year in Sunfire Red.

Pontiac built over 2000 cars every production day. Even unpopular colors were sprayed on 1-2% of production EVERY DAY. I'm sure the evidence exists one way or the other. Until I find examples built every week of the Model Year, there remains the possibility that Wanger's is remembering it correctly. So all I can do is keep looking for Sunfire Red survivors.

Originally Posted by Pontirag

the scarry thing about "possibilities" narrow as they may be , is that it opens up the oportunity for abuse and speculation like the dual quad myth that keeps getting repeated, and those pesky one off proof of concept cars that keep getting hyped up and popping up like mushrooms from BS in the dark. perhaps when enough witness's to the truth pass on, then the "possibilities" can be repeated enough to become fact. Caveate emptor?

Not sure why you bring up the dual quad story. You keep turning that story into myth. Nobody except you ever claimed that Pontiac did anything more than consider the possibility of dual quads for the GTO, yet you keep suggesting that somebody will be "discovering" prototype pieces that NOBODY has ever claimed to have been produced. Why do you continue to speculate about the existence of such parts? It is nonsense. PMD considered lots of stuff for the GTO. Some things never made it past a design proposal stage. I'm not sure who you mean when you refer to "witness's (sic) to the truth". But if these witnesses are the only folks that you think know the "truth" about the GTO, then I guess we'll just agree to disagree. Some of these witnesses are among the main sources of misinformation about the GTO in my view.

How about we stick to the goal of the thread now, trying to find evidence of Sunfire Red cars built every week of the Model Year.

We can keep the speculation out of it, any help you can offer about the build date & plant of any Sunfire Red '64 is appreciated.

[geeteeohguy]

Several other '64 GTO colors were also metallic. The one thing all the metallic paints of the day had in common is that they didn't hold up very well. I remember. They'd fade out in a couple of years if not garaged. I don't believe Sunfire Red was any different in metallic formula...just color of pigment.

[John V.]

Pontirag, I really have no idea what you are trying to say in your last post.

I plan to continue to look for examples of Sunfire Red '64 Pontiacs. I'll continue to report the results here.

To bring the data back to the top, here is what I have so far:

10B (plant unknown)
10C (Fremont)
10E (Pontiac)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
02A Kansas City)
02B (Kansas City)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
04C (Pontiac)
5B (Fremont)
06B (Pontiac)
06C (Kansas City)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[dld]

Originally Posted by Terry Gartner

It kind of looks pink, I'm all for originality, but not Mary Kay...

Should we just go with another red?

Got to looking at the formula on code n witch was used buy Buick also named as coral mist poly ( witch my work better for you given where you post from )

These old colors were not clear coated. All colors are formulated by paint mfg's GM and all other users of wet coatings only ordered the paint. they had Nothing to do with making paint or formulating. They made a agreement on there choose or colors.

I looked at the formula for code N and also code D to make a quart of lacquer

code D navada silver poly
code N sunfire red poly

the formula for D has
798.9 grams of fine alum
6.8 grams of black
3.4 grams of white
2.2 grams of blue
57.1 grams of clear

code N is
481.2 grams of fine alum
381.6 grams of orange
6.6 grams of lt. red

look at the amount of alum. flake in these colors. this is only a powder.

my point here is. there is no clear in the code N. the alum will float in the color until set. there will be some depth and protection of alum to atmosphere and polishing with clear in the color. with out clear the alum is only covered by color.any amount of buffing would ware the color off the alum. flake and cause a bright spot or mottling effect.

this was a one year color.??? if used now with modern two stage this would not be a issue. But in my opinion incorrect . none of these old metallic colors could be buffed with to much zest. unless clear lacquer was applied over color coats. but i'm old school.

[Terry Gartner]

There appears to be a Sunfire Red car in the September 2013 GTOAA Legend on page 12, belonging to Mr. Mark Mastin.

Is this an accurate representation of the color?

[bill ryder]

I helped judge the car at Dayton. Very nice restoration. At that time, I was not aware John was documenting the build codes of Sunfire Red. "Bill"!

[Engine-Ear]

Well this addition to the story should be interesting.

But first, let me point out that there is one of the evidently low-production '64 Rivs in Coral Poly rusting in a driveway 10 miles from my house and $3k or less buys it. (Pass it along to your die-hard tri-shield buddies)

Anyway, I bought a new daily driver. One (real) prior owner [In that I mean that the car was owned and driven by the original owner until 1982, then his son and a friend of his both technically 'owned' her but never made the 'connection' (hopefully SOME of you guys know what I mean)]. Boring to the hi-perf crowd, but it is a NICE 78k mile more-door Tempest Custom. 215/auto manual everything else. She is reasonably peppy and is dripping style (and NO oil!).

So here ya go...

John V., I am eager to get your interpretation of the pedigree...

[60sstuff]

Engine-Ear, Very Cool Driver, in a Very Cool Color! Any pics of under the hood?

[Diego]

Sunfire Red is the only reason why I'd buy a '64 - it's a gorgeous color.

To a comment:

"I believe Wangers made the story up." best to confirm that statement/fact directly with Wangers or contact the person who wrote the article and and confirm Wangers as his source. Its a shame that Wangers keeps getting beat down on this site. It ultimately harms the pontiac community to discredit wangers and put in his place unfounded speculation simply to add credability to a personal agenda. Your not the only one doing it but doing it ultimately harms the hobby and Mr Wangers. it happens alot to knowlegeable people who come on this site. Run them off and spin baby spin.

Can't say I'm privy to how Wangers has been slighted in the past, but the guy's not infallible. He's certainly a marketing wiz and knows his cars, but sometimes history has a way of proving some of his comments false. It's not picking on the man but, rather, something that happens to all of us - sometimes we remember things differently than reality.

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Beautiful !

[John V.]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

Well this addition to the story should be interesting.

But first, let me point out that there is one of the evidently low-production '64 Rivs in Coral Poly rusting in a driveway 10 miles from my house and $3k or less buys it. (Pass it along to your die-hard tri-shield buddies)

Anyway, I bought a new daily driver. One (real) prior owner [In that I mean that the car was owned and driven by the original owner until 1982, then his son and a friend of his both technically 'owned' her but never made the 'connection' (hopefully SOME of you guys know what I mean)]. Boring to the hi-perf crowd, but it is a NICE 78k mile more-door Tempest Custom. 215/auto manual everything else. She is reasonably peppy and is dripping style (and NO oil!).

So here ya go...

John V., I am eager to get your interpretation of the pedigree...

Matt, very cool! I love red interior cars. Yours is incredibly/impossibly clean.

Unfortunately, it was built 11B at the Pontiac Plant, already have an example recorded from there that week so doesn't fill any holes in my data collection. If you come across any other Sunfire Red examples, be sure to collect the data.

Will you be pulling the PHS record for this one?

The Accessory Codes show:

2A - Front Bench Seat Foam Seat Cushion (Sales Code 412). This added an extra layer of 1-3/4" thick foam cushion to the Front Bench Seat construction for improved ride comfort.

2P - Back-up Lamps (Sales Code 471).

4G - Sales Code 464 Décor Moldings. I have seen the 4G code on all '64 Tempest Customs (just a few I've encountered from the Pontiac and Kansas City plants) but I do NOT know if the 4G code was always shown for the Tempest Custom or if it was only shown when the Sales Code 064 Décor Group option was included and it just happened to be included on all the Tempest Customs I have studied. The Décor Group option included the Sales Code 461 Deluxe Horn Ring (this was standard on all Tempest Customs, optional for the Tempests), plus the Sales Code 462 Deluxe Wheel Discs, plus the Sales Code 464 Door Window Frame Scalp Moldings (specific to the 4 dr Sedan, Sports Coupe, or Station Wagon). You could order the Sales Code 064 Décor Group option for the Tempest or Tempest Custom. Your car shows these Scalp Moldings. You could only get them when you ordered the Décor Group option, they were NOT available separately even though they had a specific Sales Code (464). Your car also shows the Deluxe Wheel Discs, so very strong chance your TC was ordered with the Décor Group option.

In addition, I see the Deluxe Pushbutton Radio.

I suspect your car also included the Basic Group option. This consisted of the Front Seat Foam Cushion, the Back-up Lamps, the Sales Code 392 Pushbutton Radio with Manual Antenna, the Sales Code 421 Windshield Washers with Dual Speed Wipers (do you have this option?), and the Sales Code 431 Heavy Duty Air Cleaner.

I am not certain what the story is for the 6 cyl Heavy Duty Air Cleaner. The Accessory Catalog indicates Sales Code 431 was only available with the optional 326 V8. This is also shown this way in the '64 Tempest Inspector's Guide.

A Heavy Duty Air Cleaner IS listed in the '66 Master Parts Catalog for the '64/'65 T/6 however the Heavy Duty replacement element is NOT listed for the '64, only the '65. So I suspect in '64 they did NOT offer a HD Air Cleaner from the factory for the T/6 (I'm sure an owner could retrofit the '65 HD unit to the '64 6 cyl if he wanted).

Nevertheless, I think it is likely the Basic Group option was ordered for your car, it would have been priced lower than for a V8 car since it did not include the HD Air Cleaner in the Group package. I don't have price sheets to check however.

The auto trans would have been an expensive option.

You'd have to pull the PHS to see what other options (Whitewall Tires, the Outside Rearview Mirror?) were factory ordered.

As your original thread title suggested, that is one awesome '64. Way to go!

[dld]

JV
here are the formulas you wanted. note the code L was re-formulated some time in 64 or 65.

something about the tints . all colors are a mix of tint colors. these colors are VERY rich in color to the point of looking black in some cases. As you can see any lesser or more of a tint will affect the color. The tints need to have consistency of course to maintain consistency in the color.

none of the metallic colors in todays paint will match these old colors . mainly due to the metallic used now. size and shape is different.

the addition of clear in the colors is to add some depth and transparency to the color.
important note any aggressive compounding will affect color .as you cut through the paint this inevitably hit the alum. flakes . This will brighten or streak color . At this point re-paint is the only option.

the lac of clear in the mentioned color Coral Reef or sunfire (whatever) code L would be very much vulnerable to hitting the alum. and wearing off the color from flakes. this would brighten the color . The addition of clear to this color would make color more pink. as the flakes would be less covered buy color. it would be like adding white to red . that makes pink.

More to understand ALL these colors are of the same makeup no more shine no less. The tints that make up all car colors of this type are the same chemically. clear is paint with out color red is same as black just different pigment ect.

I say all this from being in body shop world since 1974

[John V.]

dld, thanks.

Actually, Code L Marimba Red was changed at the start of the '64 Model Year. There was a Code L Marimba Red in '63, but for some reason, the paint manufacturer's changed it for '64 and it was then called Marimba Red #2. This was addressed by an Inter-organizational Letter dated Oct. 2, 1963. It was slightly different shade but they elected to retain the original name, possibly because the literature had already gone out showing Marimba Red was being offered again for '64.

Sunfire Red was Code N.

Interesting that both Marimba Red and Sunfire Red do not have clear.

I didn't ask about Nocturne Blue, Code W. I wonder if the darker colors lacked the clear while the paler colors included it? What about Nocturne Blue?

I remain skeptical that Sunfire Red was discontinued for a time.

I understand your explanation about the clear making the color more transparent. But if that made Sunfire Red more prone to problems, the same should have been true of Marimba Red and any other color lacking clear in the formula.

Still need to collect data from more Sunfire Red cars before any real conclusion can be reached about when Sunfire Red was sprayed or not sprayed.

[John V.]

Originally Posted by John V.

I suspect your car also included the Basic Group option. This consisted of the Front Seat Foam Cushion, the Back-up Lamps, the Sales Code 392 Pushbutton Radio with Manual Antenna, the Sales Code 421 Windshield Washers with Dual Speed Wipers (do you have this option?), and the Sales Code 431 Heavy Duty Air Cleaner.

I am not certain what the story is for the 6 cyl Heavy Duty Air Cleaner. The Accessory Catalog indicates Sales Code 431 was only available with the optional 326 V8. This is also shown this way in the '64 Tempest Inspector's Guide.

A Heavy Duty Air Cleaner IS listed in the '66 Master Parts Catalog for the '64/'65 T/6 however the Heavy Duty replacement element is NOT listed for the '64, only the '65. So I suspect in '64 they did NOT offer a HD Air Cleaner from the factory for the T/6 (I'm sure an owner could retrofit the '65 HD unit to the '64 6 cyl if he wanted).

Nevertheless, I think it is likely the Basic Group option was ordered for your car, it would have been priced lower than for a V8 car since it did not include the HD Air Cleaner in the Group package. I don't have price sheets to check however.

Matt, while looking for something else, I found a Service Craftsman News that announced that on Nov. 15, 1963, a larger element Heavy Duty Air Cleaner was released for the 6 cyl Tempest!

Yours was built about that time, so wonder if it got the HD Air Cleaner or not. They included pix of both the std. & HD Air Cleaners.

The std. has sort of a pyramid shape on the lid. The HD has sorta a tall lid, bascially flat across the top.

Very distinctive difference, will be curious to see which one your car has.

[dld]

Originally Posted by John V.

dld, thanks.

Actually, Code L Marimba Red was changed at the start of the '64 Model Year. There was a Code L Marimba Red in '63, but for some reason, the paint manufacturer's changed it for '64 and it was then called Marimba Red #2. This was addressed by an Inter-organizational Letter dated Oct. 2, 1963. It was slightly different shade but they elected to retain the original name, possibly because the literature had already gone out showing Marimba Red was being offered again for '64.

Sunfire Red was Code N.

Interesting that both Marimba Red and Sunfire Red do not have clear.

I didn't ask about Nocturne Blue, Code W. I wonder if the darker colors lacked the clear while the paler colors included it? What about Nocturne Blue?

I remain skeptical that Sunfire Red was discontinued for a time.

I understand your explanation about the clear making the color more transparent. But if that made Sunfire Red more prone to problems, the same should have been true of Marimba Red and any other color lacking clear in the formula.

Still need to collect data from more Sunfire Red cars before any real conclusion can be reached about when Sunfire Red was sprayed or not sprayed.

John, i agree i also would have to see proof of the pulling a color due to gloss. As i have attempted to show . All the colors are of the same chemical composure. The lack of or gloss of is the same for all colors. The attempt to increase gloss buy buffing would be at dealer risk or owners . i can not see why GM would warranty such action. Maybe just a senior moment

I suspect more of a problem with code L . if you look at the formulas . notice where it says for overall use. This means there is a match problem generally. Sort of a beware flag.

[Engine-Ear]

Good tech here, guys.

John, I will check the air cleaner housings on both '64 Tempests I have (one is stick, one automatic)... They both seem to have the same housing.

Actually what I will probably do so as to no hijack this thread (which is/was sunfire red themed) is start another on the car... Ramblin' Rose (based on a Nat King Cole tune).

[PONTIAC LARRY]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

Good tech here, guys.

John, I will check the air cleaner housings on both '64 Tempests I have (one is stick, one automatic)... They both seem to have the same housing.

Actually what I will probably do so as to no hijack this thread (which is/was sunfire red themed) is start another on the car... Ramblin' Rose (based on a Nat King Cole tune).

Remember for Ramblin Rose after the carb tuning, etc.. a ST300 swap to a TH200-4R