#21  
Old 01-27-2020, 04:32 PM
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About 8 years ago I took the 670 heads off my 455 65 GTO. It ran a best of 11.51 @ 115. in ideal conditions.
Put a set of outta the box round port eheads on. on the street it hooked really good with a set of BFG drag radials.
But I didn't like the looks of the rounded tires. So I bought a set of regular radial tires. BIG MISTAKE !
At a 20 roll I almost put the car in the ditch. So now I just nail it in second gear. Haven't had the car on the track with this combo so I won't guess what it will run. Cam is 240-246 @ 050, 570 lift. 3.31 posi.
Car gets a lot of thumbs up at a cruise nite (sound of the cam through the flowmasters)
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  #22  
Old 01-27-2020, 06:26 PM
Paul E Paul E is offline
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NEVER bolt on the Edelbrock heads out of the box. At least pull a few valves and check the guide clearances at least. I will put good money the rest of the valves will be pulled and honed to correct clearances as they are way to tight from Edelbrock (If I am wrong no harm or extra money spent and a few minutes). That is using there clearance recommendations also. They are very good heads if they are the correct compression ratio and machined correctly.

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Old 01-27-2020, 06:56 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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And are the springs installed by Edelbrock still single coil springs ?


.

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  #24  
Old 01-27-2020, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer View Post
About 8 years ago I took the 670 heads off my 455 65 GTO. It ran a best of 11.51 @ 115. in ideal conditions.
Put a set of outta the box round port eheads on. on the street it hooked really good with a set of BFG drag radials.
But I didn't like the looks of the rounded tires. So I bought a set of regular radial tires. BIG MISTAKE !
At a 20 roll I almost put the car in the ditch. So now I just nail it in second gear. Haven't had the car on the track with this combo so I won't guess what it will run. Cam is 240-246 @ 050, 570 lift. 3.31 posi.
Car gets a lot of thumbs up at a cruise nite (sound of the cam through the flowmasters)



Ahhh XE284?

  #25  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:22 PM
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Pick up an Edelbrock head, then pick up an iron head! I bought a 455 with some fairly well ported 6Xs to build a fairly street motor. Picked up the 6X to put on my pretty basic flow bench, then picked up a stock E head. Way easier on my back! and flowed better untouched than my ported 6Xs.

But I do agree the springs are not the best, and heard the valve job and valve guides need to be double checked out of the box. But they will do your job without having additional port work.

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  #26  
Old 01-28-2020, 04:14 AM
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Our club dyno days had three of our iron head engines with full dish pistons best not only out of the box Edelbrock and Kaufman heads but out-produced some nicely ported aluminum heads. Two of our engines had 670 heads and the third 62 heads. The RAII head has more potential than those.

Talking with the guys at the machine shop that contract building engines for race teams running both long course desert trucks and dirt track vehicles, they have seen that full dished pistons make more horsepower than D-port pistons. Their guess was that quench might help at lower RPM but under racing conditions the open flow of the full dish performed better. Not scientific, but hard to argue with real world results.

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  #27  
Old 01-28-2020, 10:38 PM
JEC3039 JEC3039 is offline
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Thanks for all the quick replies. More info from me:

- pistons are dished 30cc. Yep, that's a lot, but it's what I asked for.
- block has been cut to provide true zero deck.
- current volume across the 8 chambers ranges from 69.4 to 70.0 (they've been lightly cut a few times over the years).
- resultant SCR across the 8 cylinders in this 461 ranges from 9.40 to 9.44.

Background - In the early '90s I first used these heads on my original 389 block punched 4.120 for 400 pistons, Crower Sportsman rods, Wolverine 230/230/110 hft cam. Yielded a true 10.5 SCR. Used 3~4 gal C-12 with 10 gal 93 unleaded to avoid ping. Max advance was 34~35°. Engine ran great. Strong rumpy idle and shifts at 6200 no problem. But when people would ask my wife what's it like riding in the car, her answer was simple - it's herky-jerky and it stinks (the car is a convertible). And she was right. So a few years ago I decided to pull the numbers engine and park that safely away, replacing it with the 461 build. I reused the RAII heads which saved the existing headers and exhaust system. The mild HR provides a very smooth idle and it makes lots of torque through mid-range. Solved the herky-jerky take-offs as well as the stinky smell.

The issue is ping. Perhaps ponjohn in post 18 hit it on the head. To avoid ping on pump gas without spiking it with race gas I have the total advance down to 30° and I'm using fairly heavy springs in the distributor to provide a slow advance ramp. I have another project pending that will use the RAII heads, so as long as I need to buy something new for the 461 I thought I'd turn to the alum E-heads to help curtail the ping. The rationale for the 72cc version is because of the deep dish in the current pistons, and the choice of round port is simply to save the headers and exhaust.

Paul E - agree. Sorry to imply I would actually bolt them on literally OOTB. They will be disassembled and verified. I live 10 minutes from PSI and have a relationship with them for my drag cars, so will change out whatever Edelbrock uses for springs to springs I'll pick from PSI's lineup.

Thanks again for the replies to my post. I have a great respect for this forum.

  #28  
Old 01-29-2020, 03:54 AM
ta man ta man is offline
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I think your plan of controlling "ping" with the e heads isn't a good idea. Your resulting compression will be rather low for aluminum heads. You really want to be over 10 to 1. You will be giving up horsepower and efficiency with less compression. I haven't calculated the chamber size but I'm thinking you will want a 65cc or so chamber.

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  #29  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:25 AM
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When I calculate your compression with 72 CC heads I come up with 8.76 to 1.

Total CC volume above piston at TDC with zero deck is 72 + 30 + 7 = 109 CCs.

Total cylinder CC volume @ .030" over with 4.250" stroke = 955.66

955.66
--------------- = 8.76
109

As posted above it would take a 65 CC chamber to get you to a 9.36 to 1 ratio, and you should be shotting for 10.5 to 1 otherwise as posted above your spending money just to loose power, or it may be a wash where you to compare peak HP that each head set up would make since the E heads flow more then your RAII heads, yet have 28 % greater port volume.

One thing is for certain, dropping on the E heads with only 8.76 to 1 would cut into the cars drivability big time below 4000 rpm!

You will need to mill those E heads .045" to just get this 9.36 to 1 ratio.

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Last edited by steve25; 01-29-2020 at 07:54 AM.
  #30  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:40 AM
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What is needed here is a larger camshaft not a cylinder head change. The 224 @ .050" cam is small for a 455 and with the excellent cylinder filling abilities of a roller cam it has high dynamic compression early in the RPM range..

We did a 455 Super Duty here with low compression and used a 230/236/112 HR cam in it. Dead smooth idle clear down to 600rpms, and pretty much done at 5200rpm's. I've seen several 455 with 220 @ .050" cams in them have issues with pump gas with compression as low as 9.2 to 1. Just be glad you did the cam on a 114 and not on a 110 with the ICL clear down at 106 or it would be a LOT worse........Cliff
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  #31  
Old 01-29-2020, 04:07 PM
KEN CROCIE KEN CROCIE is offline
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June 2012 Car Craft. we tested an out of the box Edel. D-Port head(s) on a 467 cid engine with a 232/244 cam. 464HP / 577TQ.

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  #32  
Old 01-29-2020, 05:34 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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The Mule gets a set of Edelbrock Performer Pontiac aluminum D-Port cylinder heads.......

"There is no denying that the Edelbrock cylinder heads in as-shipped form made more power than the 6X casting, but something was going on that we did not fully understand."

" It appeared as if The Mule was balking at the additional airflow. Was the cam too small for the better-flowing heads?"

Comp Cams Xtreme Energy hydraulic roller
Duration At 0.050: 224/230-deg


https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp...ylinder-heads/


.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #33  
Old 01-29-2020, 05:39 PM
Steve C. Steve C. is offline
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Ken's Edelbrock d-port head testing.....

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...ylinder-heads/

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #34  
Old 01-29-2020, 06:19 PM
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Stan Weiss Stan Weiss is offline
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72 CC heads.

30 cc dish

4.18" x 0.040" head gasket

zero deck

72 + 30 + 9 = 111 ccs.

4.180" with 4.250" stroke = 955.72 ccs

955.72 + 111
------------------ = 9.61
111

Stan

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  #35  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
72 CC heads.

30 cc dish

4.18" x 0.040" head gasket

zero deck

72 + 30 + 9 = 111 ccs.

4.180" with 4.250" stroke = 955.72 ccs

955.72 + 111
------------------ = 9.61
111

Stan


Can someone explain this? I’ve seen Stan and Steve 25 compare comp numbers before. Stan’s number is 1 point higher in each case but his math matches Steve’s.

Thanks
Murf


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  #36  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:26 PM
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Let use a third parties calculator.

http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php

enter the above numbers and see what it says.

Quote:
Your displacement is 466.57 CID
The Compression Ratio is: 9.61
Stan
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  #37  
Old 01-29-2020, 07:52 PM
Murf Murf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stan Weiss View Post
Let use a third parties calculator.



http://www.wallaceracing.com/cr_test2.php



enter the above numbers and see what it says.







Stan


Thanks for the quick reply, Stan. When I looked at the thread again it jumped right out at me. It looks like Steve isn’t adding the chamber volume to the cylinder volume before dividing by the chamber volume.

Thanks again!
Murf


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  #38  
Old 01-29-2020, 11:49 PM
JEC3039 JEC3039 is offline
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Stan - the bore is not quite as big as you plugged into the formulas.

My bores are 4.157. The Butler 461 package is based on a 4.155 bore but my machinist missed by 2 thou so I had Dart's in-house coating shop build up the piston skirts with .001 slippery coating, yielding .002 on the diameter, to restore wall clearance. So try a recalc with 4.157 and see what comes out.

I'll try to attach a chart here that gives the precise SCR per cylinder. I'm a forum rookie so not sure if it will work, but I'll try.

Thanks.
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  #39  
Old 01-30-2020, 02:45 AM
JEC3039 JEC3039 is offline
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steve25 - post 7 - You are correct, RAII heads are open-chamber. Brain fade on my part.

One of my screen savers is a shot of my 093 stock heads, and that picture was in "my" head when I was typing the initial thread. Pic attached of the 093s for grins.
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  #40  
Old 01-30-2020, 08:08 AM
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Thanks once again Stan, I keep slipping up with that simple formula!

Sorry folks!

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Wernher Von Braun warned before his retirement from NASA back in 1972, that the next world war would be against the ETs!
And he was not talking about 1/8 or 1/4 mile ETs!

1) 1940s 100% silver 4 cup tea server set.

Two dry rotted 14 x 10 Micky Thompson slicks.

1) un-mailed in gift coupon from a 1972 box of corn flakes.
Two pairs of brown leather flip flops, never seen more then 2 mph.

Education is what your left with once you forget things!
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