[67Dan]

Originally Posted by BVR421

"They sure drag their feet!"

Probably so, but they have a business to run. A big business of which we are but a gnat on the elephants back.

Dont forget our old Pontiac water pump purchases will represent maybe 1/1000 of one percent of Cardone's gross. LOL If they get a rep for having the best pump they are likely to get steady orders from the Pontiac enthusiasts so thats something to reward them anyway,
We are lucky they showed any interest at all. Cudos to all!

I understand all that! I still wonder why no one else ever caslled them like I did geting things rolling and then posting the numbers online! Then Charles and Gary kicked in gear.

I sent the Cordone pump I bought at O'Reilys and my plates to help them out. Still how long does it take to find a correct one!

Therese told me that had an engineeer go down to look last week and he got a call and his father passed away. I can wait a little longer.

Dan

[INJUNTOM]

Hopefully they aren't just patronizing the Pontiac guys.

I'm guessing they orignally added to much clearance by design, much like the piston manufacturers set the piston lower in the bore, and most machine shops err on the loose side for most machining operations.

Problem now will be if they make the tolerance too tight, they will get noise complaints, and most definately will cause problems when someone uses a plate that's been "adjusted" already, and the owner knows nothing about all this, and doesn't know to check it.

[67Dan]

Originally Posted by INJUNTOM

Hopefully they aren't just patronizing the Pontiac guys.

I'm guessing they orignally added to much clearance by design, much like the piston manufacturers set the piston lower in the bore, and most machine shops err on the loose side for most machining operations.

Problem now will be if they make the tolerance too tight, they will get noise complaints, and most definately will cause problems when someone uses a plate that's been "adjusted" already, and the owner knows nothing about all this, and doesn't know to check it.

Some of the problem was with teh returned hulls they got back had varying immpeller blades and some I know where shaved. that shoudl all be fixed and there was talk about them including a plate to go with the pump.

Dan

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by INJUNTOM

Hopefully they aren't just patronizing the Pontiac guys.

I'm guessing they orignally added to much clearance by design, much like the piston manufacturers set the piston lower in the bore, and most machine shops err on the loose side for most machining operations.

Problem now will be if they make the tolerance too tight, they will get noise complaints, and most definately will cause problems when someone uses a plate that's been "adjusted" already, and the owner knows nothing about all this, and doesn't know to check it.

This is excellent news! thanks guys!... George u getting a piece of this After all wasn't It you that brought this to light years ago? Also all cardone has to do is include a sheet of paper saying to check clearances before install!

[george kujanski]

Yep, I'm here listening and interested that the root cause of the problem is finally being addressed.

I'm not surprised that the staff at Cardone was not really aware of the situation, given the variety of designs they deal with, especially the simpler ones like SBC's which don't require the same attention to detail, apparently.

Hopefully they will come thru and supply direct-fit pumps.

Kudos to the members that brought our situation to the attention of Cardone.

George

[GT182]

I received my pump from Cardone this past Friday. Before I left for the Home Show I had to set up for in Dover, I fitted the plates/pump on the timing cover.... twice. Found something interesting.

Using the repopped SS divider plates with the pump snugged up on the timing cover, the impeller hits the rear plate. Not by much but it still hits... you can feel and hear it.

Using the original divider plate with the keyway snugged up like before, the impeller doesn't hit.

The only thing I can think of and have discussed it with Ames and Cardone, is the SS plate is bending towards the pump when tightened. The keyway in the original is a relief so the plate doesn't bend.

I know it sounds strange but it's what's happening. I've contacted Cardone and they're looking into it. They'll probably change their setup so the gap is just a little more so you won't have to play with the rear SS divider plate and there'll still be no cavatation. This will make it easier for Ames Engineering too.... they won't have to cut a keyway in their plates.

When I hear more from Cardone I'll let you know what's going on. So keep an on what's happening.

One other thing.....

I talked with my friend at Pep Boys here in Bear, DE about the problem we've been having. Pep Boys only sells Bosch water pumps.... no other brands. He in turn contacted Bosch and relayed the problem to them to see if they'd take a look at their pumps. Bosch says no way, their pumps won't be changed no way no how. To them there is no problem and they make changes they want only when they think there's a need to. According to them we have no problem with their water pumps for our old Pontiacs. My recommendation.... stay away from Bosch pumps. If anyone has them and tries to sell you one, tell em to take a hike. And after that it's in my book.... a Cardone water pump is the only one I'll buy.

[Old Goat 67]

Good job Gary,

Now, where is Dan?

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by GT182

I received my pump from Cardone this past Friday. Before I left for the Home Show I had to set up for in Dover, I fitted the plates/pump on the timing cover.... twice. Found something interesting.

Using the repopped SS divider plates with the pump snugged up on the timing cover, the impeller hits the rear plate. Not by much but it still hits... you can feel and hear it.

Using the original divider plate with the keyway snugged up like before, the impeller doesn't hit.

The only thing I can think of and have discussed it with Ames and Cardone, is the SS plate is bending towards the pump when tightened. The keyway in the original is a relief so the plate doesn't bend.

I know it sounds strange but it's what's happening. I've contacted Cardone and they're looking into it. They'll probably change their setup so the gap is just a little more so you won't have to play with the rear SS divider plate and there'll still be no cavatation. This will make it easier for Ames Engineering too.... they won't have to cut a keyway in their plates.

When I hear more from Cardone I'll let you know what's going on. So keep an on what's happening.

One other thing.....

I talked with my friend at Pep Boys here in Bear, DE about the problem we've been having. Pep Boys only sells Bosch water pumps.... no other brands. He in turn contacted Bosch and relayed the problem to them to see if they'd take a look at their pumps. Bosch says no way, their pumps won't be changed no way no how. To them there is no problem and they make changes they want only when they think there's a need to. According to them we have no problem with their water pumps for our old Pontiacs. My recommendation.... stay away from Bosch pumps. If anyone has them and tries to sell you one, tell em to take a hike. And after that it's in my book.... a Cardone water pump is the only one I'll buy.

I made an attempt to contact Bosch also and didn't get a live person on the phone so I left a brief outline of the problem on their voicemail. I said if I heard back from them i a day or so I would surmise that they are interested in maybe talking about modifications. I also said if I didn't hear back from them I would take it that they weren't interested in solving the problem. That would be conveyed online that they have the attitude that they can do no wrong and aren't interested in product improvement, we shall see. It would be nice to have more than one company making the correct waterpump for our cars. I really fear that this is going to be a futile attempt though.

[GT182]

Brad, they'll fluff you off just like they did to my friend over at Pep Boys.

Also note that Pep Boys only sells Bosch waterpumps, nothing else. If any of you go to Pep Boys, bug the living daylights out of them to get Cardone pumps.

[INJUNTOM]

If there's a different fit with different plate manufacturers, then I'd hardly expect any water pump builder to put much effort into anything other than to make sure their pumps won't hit with ANYBODY's plate. They will always err or the safe side legalitywise.

[Engine-Ear]

Originally Posted by GT182

... the impeller hits the rear plate. ... you can feel and hear it. ...the original divider plate with the keyway snugged up like before, the impeller doesn't hit.

One other thing.....
Pep Boys only sells Bosch water pumps....Bosch says no way, their pumps won't be changed no way no how.

Thanks for the update!

So assuming you have a press, is there any sanity in rebuilding your own water pump? I am one of those guys running the early (4-bolt) water pumps and with the impeller issue being what it is on those, it seems like a worthy effort.

[GT182]

Originally Posted by INJUNTOM

If there's a different fit with different plate manufacturers, then I'd hardly expect any water pump builder to put much effort into anything other than to make sure their pumps won't hit with ANYBODY's plate. They will always err or the safe side legalitywise.

Cardone is making an effort to correct the issues we're having. Paul Spotts and I know that for a fact. As for Bosch and others like them, I don't think they really care. It's been proven by my friend at Pep Boys and Sirrotica(Brad) that got nowhere with Bosch.

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

Thanks for the update!

So assuming you have a press, is there any sanity in rebuilding your own water pump? I am one of those guys running the early (4-bolt) water pumps and with the impeller issue being what it is on those, it seems like a worthy effort.

For sure if you have the right tools to rebuild your own.

I looked real close today at the SS rear divider plate and compared it to my original. I see now that the contour in it is not the same as the original. It has a small curve in it that's about 3/8ths of an inch wide and then it's flat from the curve to the center opening. The original plate is curved inwards all the way to the center. Why the difference I've no idea. It might be a good idea if I get ahold of Ames Engineering again and find out.

If anyone has and original and SS reproduction for the 8 bolt pump, please take a close look at them if you can and confirm what I'm seeing. I need some backup on this before I make a call. It might not be anything important, but I want to make sure first for the simple reason I saw Dan67's SS Plate up at Cardone, and it was hitting his impeller in the same place where the plate flattens out.

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by GT182

Cardone is making an effort to correct the issues we're having. Paul Spotts and I know that for a fact. As for Bosch and others like them, I don't think they really care. It's been proven by my friend at Pep Boys and Sirrotica(Brad) that got nowhere with Bosch.



For sure if you have the right tools to rebuild your own.

I looked real close today at the SS rear divider plate and compared it to my original. I see now that the contour in it is not the same as the original. It has a small curve in it that's about 3/8ths of an inch wide and then it's flat from the curve to the center opening. The original plate is curved inwards all the way to the center. Why the difference I've no idea. It might be a good idea if I get ahold of Ames Engineering again and find out.

If anyone has and original and SS reproduction for the 8 bolt pump, please take a close look at them if you can and confirm what I'm seeing. I need some backup on this before I make a call. It might not be anything important, but I want to make sure first for the simple reason I saw Dan67's SS Plate up at Cardone, and it was hitting his impeller in the same place where the plate flattens out.

I have had no contact with Bosch since I left them the voice mail so far it seems they aren't interested and their claim to making the best replacement waterpumps available, is nothing more than a claim. If they don't do the job properly and still cause overheating they clearly are not the best replacement waterpumps. It's a shame because their pumps in other applications are all new parts and not re-man, they also a high quality ceramic seal in their pumps and the pumps are aluminum.

I'm sure Ames may have the same attitude that they've had no trouble selling their SS plates even if they aren't correct as per the original plates. I doubt their going to worry about it and going to the expense of changing a die just to please a few people.

[GT182]

Brad, I just talked to Tim at Ames Engineering and they are looking into it right now. I'm sure once they see what the difference is they will do something about it. They are very interested in all of this for sure. As soon as they do look, Tim said he will call be back.

I imagine a die change wouldn't be all that much of a problem. Still having to beat on your SS plates to make the correct curve in them is a problem.... IMHO.

[Sirrotica]

Gary, it's far better to be surprised by a response than having no response at all or a negative response. Some manufacturers might have the common sense that informed consumers will vote with their wallets and they'll not be able to sell the inferior quality anymore, let's hope so.

Ames response surprises me since I have heard rumors that since Steve Ames is no longer at the helm that responses have been less than satisfactory at times on other parts of their business. Since the Pontiac hobby is not huge there is little room for people that don't pay attention to their customers complaints. I hope all people in all parts of the hobby pay attention to the people that actually spend their money with them and keep quality good in all our parts.

Early on I worked in a maintenance/welding job in a injection molding shop which of course uses dies and I assure you changing the negative and positive cavities in a die are expensive and costs associated may not justify the change. We shall see how this shakes out and I hope it is feasible to make the changes, too bad it wasn't discovered when the dies were originally made.

[GT182]

Brad, I'm dealing directly with Steve and Tim at Ames Engineering... not Ames Performance Engineering where we get our parts from out of the catalog. They are 2 separate businesses. Steve did sell the APE business, to which he now supplies parts to, and PY plus others.

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

We shall see how this shakes out and I hope it is feasible to make the changes, too bad it wasn't discovered when the dies were originally made.

Yes it would have been when the dies were originally made. But because they were probably made back when rebuild buisnesses like Cardone started with the rebuilding pumps without any knowlege of how Pontiac did what they did and Ames following the way Cardone and others were making the incorrect impellers, it only now we're finding out that the SS rear divider plate is made wrong. At least I think it's wrong and may be the only one thinking that way... well, at least Charles is agreeing with me. I look at it this way... it's not over until they tell me it's over and nothing will be done. At least Steve and Tim are listening for to me for now. I just need others to take a look at theirs and hopefully back me up on what I've found. I sure don't want to have to beat on that plate to get the correct curve in it so the impeller doesn't hit it. And that's what and why it is now. I think it's the last stepping stone to getting this whole issue resolved.

[INJUNTOM]

Originally Posted by GT182

Cardone is making an effort to correct the issues we're having. Paul Spotts and I know that for a fact. As for Bosch and others like them, I don't think they really care. It's been proven by my friend at Pep Boys and Sirrotica(Brad) that got nowhere with Bosch.

What I'm getting at is that they may not be able to correct it 100% unless they specify one vendor's plate or another's, not to mention that they may need to specify that the installer use a new plate.

In my mind the only way to correct it 100% is to include the plates with the pump.

[grandville455]

Originally Posted by INJUNTOM

.

In my mind the only way to correct it 100% is to include the plates with the pump.

X2!

[GT182]

Originally Posted by INJUNTOM

What I'm getting at is that they may not be able to correct it 100% unless they specify one vendor's plate or another's, not to mention that they may need to specify that the installer use a new plate.

In my mind the only way to correct it 100% is to include the plates with the pump.

Like you say, I've said right along that the plates need to be included with the pumps. But if Ames is willing and can correct their plate that will work, then they wouldn't need to be included. Their plate as it is now only works with impellers that have been shaved down and the original correct impeller contour is lost.

I also believe the keyway will need to be cut into the SS plate too... just like the originals where. The keyway locks it in and the hump in the timing cover becomes a part of the plate.... all due to the curve of the plate and the impeller's contour. No keyway and the impeller will hit the plate. I've proven that truing to get this new pump installed using both plates. Original works, SS plate won't.... as it is from Ames it hits the impeller.

Here is the correct impeller contour and set so it's correct to install.....



Here's the original divider plate's contour....



SS Plate contour showing where the impeller is hitting the plate....



And the side view of the SS plate showing the contour and then it being flat to the center....



These are the best photos I could get for the SS plate. Maybe someone with a better camera than mine can get better shots and post them showing it's contour.

[Old Goat 67]

Seeing that makes me GLAD I did not purchase new plates!