[67ramairowner]

Working with a buddy on a 72 GTO installing Vintage Air. It has been a long tome since I worked on these cars and I need some help. The install of the A/C is easy but I have some questions about insulation.

Everyone says use Dynamat and now there appears to be yet another product "Dynaliner" that Dynamat says goes OVER their Dynamat Product.

Does anyone have experience with these products? The main issue is heat insulation: this entire inquiry is driven by the A/C installation. The "Dyna" products are EXPENSIVE when purchased in the precut version (only Dynamat comes precut to fit the floor). It appears to be much more reasonable when purchased in bulk. Dynaliner apparently comes only in rolls.

Any info on the heat insulation results, comments on using Dynamat and Dynaliner together and sources for these materials in rolls / bulk would be greatly appreciated.

[george kujanski]

There's also FatMat, in two thicknesses, at least 100sq. ft. quantity IIRC. I think it's cheaper than Dynamat.

From info on this and other sites, I recently bought a similar product called "peel & seal" at Lowes, used for roofing applications. I used it on the underside of my dash. The downside is they only have it in 6 in. wide rolls.

george

[Pontirag]

6 foot wide rolles? Group Purchase?

several vendors have the foil backed bubble wrap. Its effective for a while but put any pressure on it and you get that "pop" noise and all true effectivness goes "pop" too. plus with its added thickness it messes up the fit of carpeting, if not upon installation maybe later after its gone "pop".

[jetdoc]

67 I did my entire car 66 GTO with spray bed liner under the body, Dyna mat, and Dyna liner on top. It's works pretty good on the inside of the roof and on the floor, kind of expensive but I feel worth the money. I live in AZ so I needed all the insulation I could get. I bought all my products off Ebay. I could post pictures if you want. Mark

[george kujanski]

Pontirag: The "peel & seal" is in 6" wide rolls, I don't know if you missed that.

I checked the FatMat site and their stuff, in 100 sq. ft. quantities is two 18" wide rolls. Probably better for floors; I'm probably going to use that stuff for my floors when I get to it.

george

[67ramairowner]

Originally Posted by jetdoc

67 I did my entire car 66 GTO with spray bed liner under the body, Dyna mat, and Dyna liner on top. It's works pretty good on the inside of the roof and on the floor, kind of expensive but I feel worth the money. I live in AZ so I needed all the insulation I could get. I bought all my products off Ebay. I could post pictures if you want. Mark

Pictures would be great.

A question about thickness of this dynamat / dynaliner combo. Does it effect carpet fit? If ya stick enough of anything under the carpet the carpet can get a little "short" around the door jambs. What brand of carpet did you use over the Dyna Mat Dyna Liner combo?

Another ???? or two if I might.

#1 did you do the doors and if so what did you use..D-mat and D-liner or just one of the two? Did you put the Dyna under the door panel or up against the inside of the door sheet metal? What carpet did you use...Brand?

#2 Was this an A/C installation driven insulation install? if so what aftermarket A/C did you go with? We are thinking Vintage Air Gen IV and if that is what you used in Az we would love to get some info about the cooling perf. It is very hard to get numbers on how well this stuff works...R-rating #s similar to house insulation. Being an engineer numbers are IMPORTANT to me and there seems to be nothing whatsoever in terms of numbers.

Same goes for VA systems..ya cannot pry anything out of them about the performance #s of the system. All ya get is "Gen IV is MUCH better than Gen III"! Well Duh???? If ya don't know what Gen III did and ya cannot find out what Gen IV does how do you know what the relative values are??? Same for this Fatrmat DynaMat comparison.

PS What is JetDoc??? Spent some of my wasted youth as a test (non destructive and destructive) test engineer at PWA. Worked on TF30 (F-14A Tomcat) and JT9D 747 engine. Some of the test results, intended non destructive tests that resulted in destruction, were amazing..especially on the TF30 in the F-14!! .

[67ramairowner]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Pontirag: The "peel & seal" is in 6" wide rolls, I don't know if you missed that.

I checked the FatMat site and their stuff, in 100 sq. ft. quantities is two 18" wide rolls. Probably better for floors; I'm probably going to use that stuff for my floors when I get to it.

george

George

FatMat came up in another discussion. I am struggling to compare the two on therma insulation perf. Going to engineering school makes things like this job tougher...I gotta see the numbers whenever I possibly can!!!!

This looks like a PIA job under the headliner and we want the best bang for the buck. This is one of those things like paint work..it is all about the prep work. we know we can't expect the best A/C perf from an non insulated car and the roof and doors have no insulation right now.

Any info about the relative perf of FatMan versus Dynamat combined with Dynaliner?

[67ramairowner]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

6 foot wide rolles? Group Purchase?

several vendors have the foil backed bubble wrap. Its effective for a while but put any pressure on it and you get that "pop" noise and all true effectivness goes "pop" too. plus with its added thickness it messes up the fit of carpeting, if not upon installation maybe later after its gone "pop".

Yup "Pop goes the R-value". This job is too much like work to do a half baked (pun intended) job. No one wants a do over and the wrong material assures a "baked in the oven result" as far as interior temps here in Hotlanta in the summer!

I struggle with thickness of the material. Thickness is goodness as far as thermal insulation on the other hand carpet fit is impt. too. Some of the carpet guys supply carpet with some edge trimming needed and I think that is the solution to a slightly thicker insulation material. A little careful trimming is better than having a shortage of carpet material around the edges.

[geeteeohguy]

A friend just did his '67 GTO with Frost King from Lowes or Home Depot. It's about $21 per roll and you need about 1.25 rolls to do the car, if I remember correctly. Fit under the carpet and jute no issues. It DOES make the jute slide a bit....not a problem when the carpet is all in. Velcro would make the install of the carpet a little less slippy. I've driven the car, and it is FAR quieter and cooler inside than my factory tar-paper insulated '65 GTO. His total cost was under $45 for the whole car, but he didn't do the doors. Just the roof and the floor. If you start looking, the amount of available stuff is overwhelming. Some is ill-suited for automotive use, some not. All are much more reasonably priced than Dynamatt.

[george kujanski]

I did not see any thermal performance #'s for the Dynamat or Fatmat. They did have #'s for sound attenuation probably because that's the primary market for the product.

Perhaps a direct call may produce some info.

George

[67ramairowner]

Originally Posted by geeteeohguy

A friend just did his '67 GTO with Frost King from Lowes or Home Depot. It's about $21 per roll and you need about 1.25 rolls to do the car, if I remember correctly. Fit under the carpet and jute no issues. It DOES make the jute slide a bit....not a problem when the carpet is all in. Velcro would make the install of the carpet a little less slippy. I've driven the car, and it is FAR quieter and cooler inside than my factory tar-paper insulated '65 GTO. His total cost was under $45 for the whole car, but he didn't do the doors. Just the roof and the floor. If you start looking, the amount of available stuff is overwhelming. Some is ill-suited for automotive use, some not. All are much more reasonably priced than Dynamatt.

I am learning that EVERYTHING / ANYTHING is priced better than Dynamatt!!!! I need to take a look at this Frost King stuff. Does it have adhesive on one side? Is your friends 67 A/C equipped?

[67ramairowner]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

I did not see any thermal performance #'s for the Dynamat or Fatmat. They did have #'s for sound attenuation probably because that's the primary market for the product.

Perhaps a direct call may produce some info.

George

Yup NO #s.... why am I not surprised???? This stuff could have the R-Value of a napkin for all we know...along I might add with the price tag of Solid Gold!! It is a curse ..wanting to dig in and actually get some performance numbers on this stuff. I guess the years in E-school and working in engineering have taught me not to just rely on hear-say. Show me the numbers!!! I am having the same issue with A/C selection for this car. All ya get is non quantifiable generalities..."this is better than that" but for me at least answers like that one are worth very little.

I wonder how folks can just throw this stuff in and "hope" it is gonna do the job? This all started with a friend of mine doing a 34 Ford. He has HUGE $$$$$$$ in the car and he admits skimping on the insulation. He is REALLY kicking himself for not getting it right and I want very much to avoid the same fate with this GTO I am working on.

Sound attenuation is certainly important, I am more and more spoiled by my wifes Lexus 400 Series. On the same note however the A/C in her car is awesome. Seems to me there is no reason ya cannot get the sound attenuation and insulation if ya just search long enough.

[Engine-Ear]

67rao, I agree with the quest for data...but if the data was acquired wrongly, even having the numbers can be useless.

Back to an earlier post, I would use the bubble-backed stuff on roof panels and outside door panels.

Anyone here have feedback (either QUALitative or QUANtitative) on any closed-cell foam thermal (and I guess vibration?) barrier materials? ...Won't go 'pop'.

Just did a search and found this stuff: http://radiantbarrier.reachlocal.com...id=10113787621

[67ramairowner]

Originally Posted by Engine-Ear

67rao, I agree with the quest for data...but if the data was acquired wrongly, even having the numbers can be useless.

Back to an earlier post, I would use the bubble-backed stuff on roof panels and outside door panels.

Anyone here have feedback (either QUALitative or QUANtitative) on any closed-cell foam thermal (and I guess vibration?) barrier materials? ...Won't go 'pop'.

Just did a search and found this stuff: http://radiantbarrier.reachlocal.com...id=10113787621

If we are talking about "bubble Pack" like material..material used in shipping I think the "pop" observation makes sense. I am not at a point where I have seen too many of these materials but I am sure that if there is a material using the clear bubble "air" type packing material that material is going to be susceptible to the popping.

If on the other hand we are talking about a material that uses what I think is called a closed cell foam then I agree the "pop" factor should be a non issue. When I talk about closed cell I believe the terminology relates to a material that is more "sponge like" in nature as opposed to the packaging material I suspect we are all more familiar with.

That "sponge like" term is not the best but it is all I can come up with right now. To be sure we are talking about the same stuff we really need to discuss a place where this stuff is used that is common knowledge to everyone. I think the "bubble" terminology is causing me some confusion here. While I think I understand what "closed cell" means I can't for the life of me come up with a real world place where the stuff is used.

I do agree that the material used on the roof and the doors can be "less wear resistant" all it has to do is sit there..it is not going to get stepped on so its resistance to weight and foot traffic can be much less than ,material used on the floor.

Time to look at your research work. More later.

[geeteeohguy]

67ramairowner, the Frost King is adhesive on one side and foil on the other side. It's about 1/4" thick, if I remember correctly. He put it on with a roller, and it stuck well and followed the contours of the floor. The main purpose out here in hot central CA was to keep HEAT out of the car. It seems to do that pretty well (better than the stock tarpaper in my cars does!). As a bonus, it's fairly quiet inside the car as well, even with stiff gears, four speed, and loud exhaust. No Lexus, but overall, it increased the "quality" feel of the car. When I do carpets in mine next time, SOMETHING other than paper is going in , that's for sure.

[67ramairowner]

Thanks GeeteeOhguy

Can you tell me if your friend did anything with his doors and roof (assuming it is a hardtop)? I am wondering if we should be thinking of insulation up against the inside of the door skin OR insulation between the door panel and the door frame that the panel attaches to. This car has a 40 Y/o headline that has to go so we are planning to do something to the underside of the top before the new headliner goes in. Any comments on what your friend did are apreciated!!!

We have the same issue here in Hotlanta as you do in Calif. Likely more humidity here and somewhat less heat. This summer 90+ days over 90+ degrees. Sometimes it felt like HOUSTON!!!!

I am going FULL BORE on the insulation of this car because we want it as good as it can be and because I will be doing a car of my own later. The research I am doing for this car currently under construction is research I would have to do anyway for my car.

Another thing is window tint. This car has great glass so we are thinking of putting on the "add on" window tint. A friend had it done to his pickup about 5 years ago and the stuff has held up VERY well. The heat reduction due to limiting the direct sun inside the car is signif. The objective with this A/C and insulation is to keep the heat out and thereby minimize the heat load the A/C has to deal with removing.

[Pontirag]

In the corvette industry everybody knows about NCRS. They put out a first class magazine called the Corvette Restorer.

back in the winter of 09 they published Volume35 number 3.

on pages 12 and 13 was an interesting article, "keeping It Cool" by Gary Chesnut.

makes for an interesting read,

[67ramairowner]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

In the corvette industry everybody knows about NCRS. They put out a first class magazine called the Corvette Restorer.

back in the winter of 09 they published Volume35 number 3.

on pages 12 and 13 was an interesting article, "keeping It Cool" by Gary Chesnut.

makes for an interesting read,

As an owner of a 66 Vette that article is 2x interesting for me. Thankyou!

Now speaking a little from both sides of my mouth here. The NCRS guys can get their shoelaces tied together really easy over non original equipment. I bet some of the hard core typeswould rather be original and HOT than cool and non original! LOL!!!!!

[67ramairowner]

Originally Posted by Pontirag

In the corvette industry everybody knows about NCRS. They put out a first class magazine called the Corvette Restorer.

back in the winter of 09 they published Volume35 number 3.

on pages 12 and 13 was an interesting article, "keeping It Cool" by Gary Chesnut.

makes for an interesting read,

Could you please redo the second thumb of the article. I cannot seem to get it into a form that I can read. I think that the scan quality in the 2nd thumb you posted is not as good as the first page for some reason

[geeteeohguy]

67ramairowner, my friend Bill did use it on the roof under his headliner, and it really stuck well. He did not use it in the doors. At the time, I asked him, and he just said he didn't feel the need. His car had O rust and is a dry CA car he's had since 1977. The factory stuff sprayed on the inside of his doors was still fine. If it were me, I'd probably roll some Frost King or whatever in the doors and quarter panels when the glass was out. The stuff is not very heavy, and seems to really "tighten up" the car. Beware of some stuff, though. I went to an autobody class a couple of years ago, and the instructor told us of an old car (I think it was a Packard) that was destroyed by the guy shooting that yellow expanding foam into the rockers and a-pillars, etc. The stuff turned out to be acidic and a water-absorber, and his car rusted out everywhere within a couple of years and was not repairable.....but it sure was quiet for a short time!!