[Squidward]

Not many people would waste time putting KRE or E heads on a 350, but if the valves clear the bore (2.11/1.66) it would be interesting to see how a good flowing set of heads would do for a 350 - stroked, or otherwise.

I still haven't reached full potential on my 67 FB with 350. Since adding my EFI to the engine, the engine feels like it has taken a good step forward, but I have no data to firmly back that up. Track testing should come up in the next month.

I think a 350 build would be interesting even with a set of d-ports, like small valve high compression 400 heads (16's or 46's?). Intake valve selection would be a little bit limited, but I'm sure there are a million options in the Chevy 2.02 sizing. Ferrea lists 1.66 Pontiac valves in 5.11 and 5.23 lengths, so the exhaust valve would be covered. Just thinking out loud.

[ponyakr]

"... small valve high compression 400 heads (16's or 46's?). Intake valve selection would be a little bit limited, but I'm sure there are a million options in the Chevy 2.02 sizing. Ferrea lists 1.66 Pontiac valves in 5.11 and 5.23 lengths, so the exhaust valve would be covered...

Do you know what length valves came in those heads ?

If they require the short valves, I think SI offers the stainless valves, in the short 1.96 & 1.66 sizes.

http://sivalves.com/flipbook/2016-SI-Catalog.html#p=42

But, as you say, there are probably 2.02 valves available in every possibly configuration.

And, I think I mentioned that a guy here had KRE heads built with either 2.07 or 2.08 valves. So, I'm thinkin valves will be no problem.

[Squidward]

Go with the 5.1 valves, and get 1.7 IH springs.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Squidward

Go with the 5.1 valves, and get 1.7 IH springs.

Is that so that you can use a cam with close to .500 or more lift ?

Will that length valves require custom length pushrods, in those heads ?

[ponyakr]

Since we're talking about 350 Pontiac performance, I thought some of you guys might be interested in this. At the NHRA div 5 doubleheader, Brad Koivisto's 350 powered '74 GTO, ran an 11.36. That's with unported #46 small valve heads, an iron intake, and a 750 Q-jet.

https://www.nhra.com/results/2018/lu...ock-eliminator

Many times when I post Stocker performance, some are quick to say that those engines should not be referenced on a street thread. I realize that there are other things, besides the engine, that makes these cars so quick. BUT, a certain amount of power is still required to run low 11's, even if the car is optimized for drag racing.

So, this reference is just pointing out how much power is possible with unported small valve #46 heads, a low lift non-roller cam, iron intake & 750 Q-jet.

[ponyakr]

At this same race, Bill Rink is #1 on the Super Stock Q-1 list, with his 350 powered '74 GTO.

https://www.nhra.com/results/2018/lu...er/super-stock

His car has run well into the 10's.

Hey, ya'll can do whatever you want with this info. But the engines powering these cars have 350 Pontiac blocks, small valve #46 heads, & a 750 Q-jet.

[tom s]

is it not true that in SS they can run a roller cam?Also they can do a ton of work to the head as long as the CCs meet NHRA spec?I know in stock they are hand cuffed but not so much in SS?Tom

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by tom s

is it not true that in SS they can run a roller cam?Also they can do a ton of work to the head as long as the CCs meet NHRA spec?I know in stock they are hand cuffed but not so much in SS?Tom

Correct. Super Stockers can run a roller cam, limited porting , & an aftermarket alum intake. I think most also run a crank triggered ignition.

Stocker cams must be flat tappet, and have a max valve lift, with no limit on duration, or spring pressure.

According to the Class Racer Info site, the max valve lift for the '74 GTO cam is .388/.424, using 1.5 ratio rockers. I have no idea where they came up with those numbers, since that engine had an 066 cam.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginesearch4.htm

SS cars can run big tires & suspension mods. Stockers are limited to 9" tread width. Leaf spring cars run Cal-trac type bars. Many also run the Calvert split mono-leafs. I assume that most older GM Stockers run 12-bolt rear ends.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Correct. Super Stockers can run a roller cam, limited porting , & an aftermarket alum intake. I think most also run a crank triggered ignition.

Stocker cams must be flat tappet, and have a max valve lift, with no limit on duration, or spring pressure.

According to the Class Racer Info site, the max valve lift for the '74 GTO cam is .388/.424, using 1.5 ratio rockers. I have no idea where they came up with those numbers, since that engine had an 066 cam.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.wallaceracing.com/enginesearch4.htm

SS cars can run big tires & suspension mods. Stockers are limited to 9" tread width. Leaf spring cars run Cal-trac type bars. Many also run the Calvert split mono-leafs. I assume that most older GM Stockers run 12-bolt rear ends.

BUT IIRC the SS have to run the factory carb...no?

[67GTO4SPEED]

'69 Firebird 350 HO 4-speed, 4.33 posi 12.59 @ 110.29 mph

Addtl times: None

Options: (see Notes) Wt : 3460 (curb) 3350 (after mods) Magazine : SS (3/69)

Notes: Royal Pontiac prepared (level 2 and beyond). Tires were 9.00/9.50x14 slicks. This was a fully prepped Royal race car designed to compete in the F/S drag racing class. The car was red with white Trans Am stripes (flat hood) and the lower rear quarters were also white, blending into the white tail panel, and ROYAL Racing Team in large lettering on the sides. Car had the twin hood tach nacelles, one housing a hood tach, the other was for the Ram Air option on the 350 HO (shown in the 1969 Firebird brochure). Chassis was setup by Royal, and the 350 engine was built to NHRA stock class specs (stock intake, carb, and cc'd heads). Car had Doug's headers, Schiefer racing clutch, electric fuel pump, forged pistons, and a custom oil pan. The power steering pump and power brakes were removed to shave weight. They then proceeded to remove the radio and all the interior sound deadener, as well as the rear seat and passenger seat. The radiator and battery were replaced with standard duty units to cut weight. The heater was left in place as per NHRA stock class rules. Test was conducted on a cold day (35 degrees) and the track was dusty. This was the same car that soon received a RAV engine (see next test).

I thought an article I read a long time ago in Super Stock magazine. I'm going to see if I can dig up the actual article, but I did find the specs and times above from Mike Noun's site.

The car was on the cover. That was a stout little 350, especially in 1969.

[tom s]

SS has to run the factory OJ.TDont seem to have any issues running in the 9s.Tom

[ponyakr]

"...the SS have to run the factory carb...no?"

No, the Q-jet cars can run any GM Q-jet of the same size that came on the engine claimed. For most '67-'74 Pontiacs, that means a 750cfm. It can be from a Pontiac Olds, Buick, Cad, and even a Chevy. Can also be a an Edelbrock 1901, which was a side inlet 750cfm Q-jet, made by Weber for Edelbrock.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Edelbrock-Q...IAAOSwgkRVUnbb

This is for both Stock & SS.

Below is a pic of Randi Lyn Shipp's '67 Bird engine bay, from a few years back. You can see that it had a side inlet Q-jet. The 2nd pic is Don Kennedy's alum head 428. It has a Pontiac 750, with the big vent. Looks like the style used from '71-'74, & the '70 CA model. These obviously didn't come on any 428 engines. Third pic is another alum head 428, which has the same type Q-jet. Don't have a clue why NHRA allows the alum heads on a 428 Pontiac. But it is a very popular engine for GT Super Stock cars. Scott Burton has switched his 3rd gen GT car over to the it. The quickest one is actually in a little Cobalt, which has made a few runs in the 8's.

[tom s]

Bruce Fulper had a LOT to do with that bogus combo getting approved!NO clue how.Tom

[azbirds]

Why aluminum heads only on the 428?

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by azbirds

Why aluminum heads only on the 428?

I think those same heads are also legal for '69 & '70 RAIV engines, in SS . That sorta makes sense, because the of the round ports & value of the RAIV iron heads. Hardly anybody runs that combo, because the HP factor of the 428 is lower. Keri Angeles drives a '69 Bird SS Bird, that use to run the RAIV. I think it was the 1st non-GT Pontiac SS car to make a 9 sec pass. Don't know if that car now runs the alum heads, or not. Anybody know ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...7&MAKE=Pontiac

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...2&MAKE=Pontiac

But, why they're legal for a D-port 428, I can't say.

[tom s]

I might see John tomorrow,last I talked to him he had the 400 engine back in the car.Tom

[67GTO4SPEED]

Originally Posted by 67GTO4SPEED

I thought an article I read a long time ago in Super Stock magazine. I'm going to see if I can dig up the actual article, but I did find the specs and times above from Mike Noun's site.

The car was on the cover. That was a stout little 350, especially in 1969.

I dug out my Super Stock magazine featuring this '69 350 HO Firebird.


350, .020" over - .003" piston deck clearance - 400 4-bolt caps added

Stock magnafluxed, shot peened, zygloed cast crank and rods

ForgedTrue 2 VR flattop forged pistons, Dykes ring setup (.010, .015, .015 gaps) tapered ForgedTrue pins

.414"/.413" 288/302 Ram Air camshaft

350 HO heads (#48, though not mentioned by name) 61.2 cc chambers, "super sharp valve job and close attention to spring height and pressure", polylocks, 1.5 ratio rockers

Stock iron intake and Q jet

Doug's headers with 8" extensions

Mallory Double life distributor

Car was a 4 speed with Schiefer clutch, 4.33 gears, GoodYear 9.50 X 14 slicks, 3350# race weight

Car had 90/10 CureRide 90/10 and 50/50 shocks, and Lakewood traction bars

12.59 @ 110.29


Pretty stout for a fairly mild 350.

[ponyakr]

"...12.59 @ 110.29..."


Back in the '70's, that was probably pretty close to the NHRA index for the class that combo would have run. And it sounds legal, except for the pistons. You were supposed to run factory pistons, identical to the originals, except for overbore size.

For our 400 Stocker, I bought some NAPA pistons, because the .030 over factory pistons were on back order. Ran good for a few races, then a NAPA piston busted. In the mean time, I'd built another 400 for my '69 GTO. By that time the factory pistons were available. These pistons lasted the rest of the season, plus 3 years in daily street duty.

Neither of our 400 cars ran as quick as that 350 Bird. But, our '68 Bird ran quick enuff to win several races at area tracks.

Just some racing trivia, for those who don't know: Member Adam Strang, was able to get a CP forged piston approved for use in the '68-'73 Pontiac 350. There were already several legal pistons for the '74-up 350's.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...8&postcount=77

[ponyakr]

Thought I'd add this to the 350 thread. At a div 3 race, Bill Rink & Mike Morgan just ran each other in a SS/LA heads-up all 350 Pontiac powered race. They both ran mid 10's. Mike ran a 10.41, with his 350 powered '77 Formy.

https://www.nhra.com/results/2018/lu...ts/super-stock

That's more than a second under the 11.45 SS/LA index. And, that's with an 800cfm Q-jet & 6x-4 heads.

[Squidward]

Way cool!