[Diego]

I went to the GM Heritage Center again earlier this week. I looked for info on the hallowed 4-speed Grand Am but it wasn't in the pile of memos I looked at. And the "Options and Accessories Report" lists 4-speeds for all A-bodies, so that doesn't help either. If some documentation exists, it's in another file or PHS may have something on it.

[grrr421]

what is it your looking for ? I have seen two one was a white car with a two barrel the other was at a pontiac show .

[Diego]

It's not that I'm looking for a car. Rather, I made a trip to the GM Heritage Center a few months ago and I know there was a request to look for those numbers. I'm just reporting back that I didn't find them.

[77 Canamman]

Thank you for checking.

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by grrr421

what is it your looking for ? I have seen two one was a white car with a two barrel the other was at a pontiac show .

The two barrel car was not available like that from Pontiac. The M20 4 speed Muncie manual transmission in the Grand Am was only available with the VIN T code 230 hp 400 4 Barrel dual exhaust engine.

[fiedlerh]

We do know:
1973 M20 4-speed (Saginaw and Muncie) total production was 2,424.
Of the 2424 in 1973:
1113 Muncies went into the 1973 GTO.
The remaining 1311 would be distributed amongst Grand Am (Muncie) and LeMans (Saginaw and Muncie). I suspect more went into Grand Ams.

1974 M20 4-speed (Saginaw, Muncie, BW-ST-10) total production was 833.
This would be distributed amongst Grand Am (Muncie, BW-ST-10) and LeMans (no stick shift wagons in 1974!) (Saginaw, Muncie, BW-ST-10). Again, I suspect more went into Grand Ams.
The Pontiac plant appears to have switched from the Muncie to the ST-10 around April of 1974, other plant changeover dates may have varied.

Why the big drop in 1974? Reasons may be that the GTO was moved to the X-body platform, and by 1974 people realized emissions controls did a good job killing performance.

Jim Matteson at PHS has personally told me he has no data on A-body 4-speed production breakdowns. Does GM Canada have anything for cars sold in Canada?

[Diego]

Originally Posted by fiedlerh

We do know:
Of the 2424 in 1973:
1113 Muncies went into the 1973 GTO.

Sure about that? The 1113 total should include 3-speeds, no?

On a somewhat related note, what is the number usually quoted for Grand Ams?

Why the big drop in 1974? Reasons may be that the GTO was moved to the X-body platform, and by 1974 people realized emissions controls did a good job killing performance.

I don't necessarily think that is accurate. There is a trend of stick shifts becoming less popular even when performance was at its peak - witness 1970. Even among performance cars like the 1973-74, stick shifts were fewer in numbers.

[fiedlerh]

Sure about that? The 1113 total should include 3-speeds, no?

Could be. Come to think about it, the published figures just say "manual". No idea of the source of the GTO numbers except they have been posted for many years.
Perhaps this is more accurate for A-bodies
1973 STD Standard 3-speed with 250 or 350: ???
1973 M13 Heavy Duty 3-speed: ???
1973 M20 4-speed Saginaw 350 or Muncie 400: 2424
1974 STD Standard 3-speed with 250 or 350: ???
1974 M13 Heavy Duty 3-speed: ???
1974 M20 4-speed Saginaw 350 or Muncie (early) 400, ST-10 (late) 400: 833

[Diego]

I just spent a number of minutes looking things up and replying only for it to disappear, so please forgive me in being a bit more brief than I usually would. This info is from the 1973 Options and Accessories Report from what I got from the GM Heritage Center:

- 1,408 3-speed column-shift not including Grand Am
- 4,479 HD 3-speed floor shift A-bodies with body codes D29-D37-F37
- 2,424 M20 4-speed all A-bodies

[Diego]

I just spent a number of minutes looking things up and replying only for it to disappear, so please forgive me in being a bit more brief than I usually would. This info is from the 1973 Options and Accessories Report from what I got from the GM Heritage Center:

- 1,408 3-speed column-shift not including Grand Am
- 4,479 HD 3-speed floor shift A-bodies with body codes D29-D37-F37
- 2,424 M20 4-speed all A-bodies

[fiedlerh]

Thank you for doing this research.

On a somewhat related note, what is the number usually quoted for Grand Ams?

There is no accurate number quoted for 4-speed 1973 Grand Ams. The "187" you see published in various articles is totally wrong. I estimate it to be more like in the 900 range give or take several hunded.

3-speed column-shift not including Grand Am

There was no column stick shift option for the Grand Am, so the number is for 6cyl and 350 LeMans. The GrandAm was limited to TH400 or Muncie 4 speed in 1973.

There is a trend of stick shifts becoming less popular

As each generation of new drivers fails to learn stick shift...
By the 60's I suspect driver's ed cars were mostly automatics, and dad had an automatic too. In the 40's an automatic transmission car became a status symbol.

So to fill in a few blanks:

1973 STD Standard 3-speed with 250 or 350: 1408
1973 M13 Heavy Duty 3-speed floor shift D29-D37-F37, 350, 400: 4479
1973 M20 4-speed Saginaw 350 or Muncie 400: 2424
1974 STD Standard 3-speed with 250 or 350: ???
1974 M13 Heavy Duty 3-speed: ???
1974 M20 4-speed Saginaw 350 or Muncie (early) 400, ST-10 (late) 400: 833

[Diego]

Originally Posted by fiedlerh

Thank you for doing this research. There is no accurate number quoted for 4-speed 1973 Grand Ams. The "187" you see published in various articles is totally wrong. I estimate it to be more like in the 900 range give or take several hunded.

I've been aware the number floating around for 4-speed Grand Ams has been 187, but I also noticed that the 400/4-speed GTO coupe (not the Colonnade) number is 187. Coincidence? An obvious mistake that has been floating around for years? I don't know, but it seems that it's quite possible the number is higher like you suggest.

So do you think I was onto something with the 1,113 number being both 3- and 4-speed GTOs?

Anyway, I am going to add to this:


1974 STD Standard 3-speed in D-F-G series except wagon: 1,942
1974 M13 Heavy Duty 3-speed D29-D37-F37: 2,201
1974 M20 4-speed Saginaw 350 or Muncie (early) 400, ST-10 (late) 400: 833

[Alvin]

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by Diego

An obvious mistake that has been floating around for years?

I totally bet it has been a mistake for years. Tim had something like almost 100 4 speed Grand Ams accounted for at the grandamregistry.com website, and for such a small number of a 30+ year old car at the time to have survived, I bet the number is an order of magnitude higher like fiedlerh speculates.

[greyno3]

This '73 G/A was for sale last year in my town. It's an original 400/4-speed. All there but the ralleye/honeycomb wheels. Owner wanted 4K. I snapped this shot as he was coming out thought we wanted to steal it because we had an empty car trailer..lol

[KenM]

My buddy tells me these year body styles will never appreciate. I can't say for sure. I think they will, but it will take time; when it finally sinks in that the market for 64-72 stuff is saturated and run its course. I love the 73-77 styles. This car is so cool. Wonder how rusty it was? It looks pretty solid. If anyone has any cash burning a hole in their pocket I'd snatch up these rare birds whenever possible.

[Brian Baker]

Sadly, I think your buddy is right. The time for these cars to peak I think has passed. Muscle cars from 64-72 peaked in the mid-80's and then had a resurgence in the 90's. In the mid-80's there were still many examples around to be had, so those interested in them could snap them up. Nearly 34 years have passed since the last '77 A-body rolled off the assembly line and these 73-77 cars have yet to peak. With fewer examples being available as the years pass, and interest in them still only held by a small niche of enthusiasts, I don't think they will ever peak and see the popularity of their 64-72 brethren,

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Sadly, I think your buddy is right. The time for these cars to peak I think has passed. Muscle cars from 64-72 peaked in the mid-80's and then had a resurgence in the 90's. In the mid-80's there were still many examples around to be had, so those interested in them could snap them up. Nearly 34 years have passed since the last '77 A-body rolled off the assembly line and these 73-77 cars have yet to peak. With fewer examples being available as the years pass, and interest in them still only held by a small niche of enthusiasts, I don't think they will ever peak and see the popularity of their 64-72 brethren,

Sadly, I think you are probably right.

K

[Chief Wanabee]

Brian, with the availability of new 650hp Mustangs and new ZL1's, couldn't you say the same thing about the desirability of the 64-72 A-body - that the market is limited and possibly shrinking? Look at the growth of Pro-Touring, where people try to replicate all of the goodness available performance and feature-wise in a new car, by putting it into a 60's body. I have no issue with that - to each their own. But the point you raise is a good one to be discussed over a few beer.

I'd like to have both worlds - a pretty much stock looking 70's Pontiac, and a Stobin-esque car that has a modern drivetrain. But I'd have to get divorced first, and I can't afford that. Heck, I can't afford two classics anyway :^)

[stobin]

"But I'd have to get divorced first, and I can't afford that." I laughed out loud when I read that one. Thanks for the comment on the GA. I have to agree with everyone regarding the values of our cars. I knew that my car would never get that value return other cars are seeing. I had owned Chevelles and Firebirds in the past. None of them ever got as much attention as the Grand Am. I have invested money into a body style that wont get it back out if I ever sell it.....which I wont. Im OK with that because the GA is one of the unique body styles ever made.