[GTOGEORGE]

LOL!!!



GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

Some years later, The Keens were winning Pro Mod Races and running 5s with a door car (63 Corvette). Not a dragster chassis, either.
Course again that is National Competition, not fun stuff.
Just a family of racers who know how to win in National Competition events.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

This is a Pontiac web site!!
PPTTF!!

GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

The example is what a older Vortech Supercharger could do, performance wise, on a smaller 347 cid engine, with a Power Glide Trans, at 3000 lb weight. 7.50 ets.

Then the second example is what the current Pro Mod type cars can do with a better engine a screw supercharger and less weight.

If you don't understand the comparison, stick to bragging about your Roots blower car that runs 7.90s, 2 seconds slower vs the fast cars.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

The example is what a older Vortech Supercharger could do, performance wise, on a smaller 347 cid engine, with a Power Glide Trans, at 3000 lb weight. 7.50 ets.

Then the second example is what the current Pro Mod type cars can do with a better engine a screw supercharger and less weight.

If you don't understand the comparison, stick to bragging about your Roots blower car that runs 7.90s, 2 seconds slower vs the fast cars.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

The example is what a older Vortech Supercharger could do, performance wise, on a smaller 347 cid engine, with a Power Glide Trans, at 3000 lb weight. 7.50 ets.

Then the second example is what the current Pro Mod type cars can do with a better engine a screw supercharger and less weight.

If you don't understand the comparison, stick to bragging about your Roots blower car that runs 7.90s, 2 seconds slower vs the fast cars.

Tom V.

Your examples are almost ALWAYS one sided and YOU very rarely tell ALL the information on a subject. Example 1......You like to compare my LOW boost Bracket car (my engine is using the SAME block and Pistons, rings, Wrist Pins and heads since 2007 and even have my original ALUMINUM GRP RODS.......thats 12 years buddy boy) to a car running 3 times the boost (about 600-700 HP difference) and LESS weight..............not apples to apples (one sided) BUT thats normal for you! Example 2.......Then you have compared MY CAR to a Bonneville Salt Flats car..........(seriously) re-gear my car and put it out there I'm sure it WILL have the power to go way over 200 MPH (if I could keep it on the ground)! I run 171 from a standing start to only 1/4 mile....how long is the Bonneville Salt Flats, bring that Bonneville Salt Flats car to Norwalk and run the 1/4 mile from a standing start.........LOL!....... (one sided comparison)! Your like some of the news stations out there......half/partial truths and one sided!! If the people were smart on this PY web site they would read your info (which can be good info) then do a internet search on a subject to get the other side of the info you are leaving out.....then they can make their decisions!





GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

Ok, you are not Jimmy Keen, you are not John Mahovitz, you are not Marty Palbykin.
You buy from BDS, period. No info on other boosting devices except for that Torqstorm
unit (where you needed help converting lbs per minute in the video to the horsepower it could make).

You are very good at Bracket Racing and 8 second racing as you have done it for a very long time.

Marty Palbykin went from a 14 second 455HO car to a low 10 second US-131 Race car with basic factory suspension, to a Pro Mod car in under 5 years. 14 seconds to 6 seconds in the quarter. So who is the better driver, if you compare how long it takes to get comfortable in a fast car, Marty was there in under 5 years with his Turbo car that would run sub 1.0 sec 60 ft times. Did your 8-75 Roots deal ever come close to a sub 1.0 60 ft time? So you post stuff but many times it is only relevant to your vehicle and your opinion on the subject. Nothing wrong with that if you want to run high 7 second times. Palbykin ran 7.40s at Norwalk the first time the car was raced there with the trans skipping 2nd gear. He has gone into the 5s in the quarter with his BAE engine, at Tucson, before he sold the chassis to Big Chief.

So he raced at one level and you raced at a different level.

But do not bad-mouth others who have experience in other racing events.

As a bit of info for you. John Clegg, a long time drag racer, built a Trans Am for Bonneville. The first year he was there he could not break 200 mph on the short course. Why, because he knew nothing about racing on the salt, just like you would know nothing. Traction on the salt and power control/aero is everything.

So again, you talk a good game but know little about any of the other forms of racing because you are a Bracket Racer on a Drag Strip.

Nothing wrong about that but similar to knowing about Boost.
You know a lot about racing a car with 12 psi of boost.
Charlie66 and others know a LOT more about racing at 35 to 60 psi of boost pressures and making the engines live. Do everyone a favor and give good advice on 12 psi of boost, 8-71 superchargers, and racing a 1974 Pontiac GTO.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Ok, you are not Jimmy Keen, you are not John Mahovitz, you are not Marty Palbykin.
You buy from BDS, period. No info on other boosting devices except for that Torqstorm
unit (where you needed help converting lbs per minute in the video to the horsepower it could make).

You are very good at Bracket Racing and 8 second racing as you have done it for a very long time.

Marty Palbykin went from a 14 second 455HO car to a low 10 second US-131 Race car with basic factory suspension, to a Pro Mod car in under 5 years. 14 seconds to 6 seconds in the quarter. So who is the better driver, if you compare how long it takes to get comfortable in a fast car, Marty was there in under 5 years with his Turbo car that would run sub 1.0 sec 60 ft times. Did your 8-75 Roots deal ever come close to a sub 1.0 60 ft time? So you post stuff but many times it is only relevant to your vehicle and your opinion on the subject. Nothing wrong with that if you want to run high 7 second times. Palbykin ran 7.40s at Norwalk the first time the car was raced there with the trans skipping 2nd gear. He has gone into the 5s in the quarter with his BAE engine, at Tucson, before he sold the chassis to Big Chief.

So he raced at one level and you raced at a different level.

But do not bad-mouth others who have experience in other racing events.

As a bit of info for you. John Clegg, a long time drag racer, built a Trans Am for Bonneville. The first year he was there he could not break 200 mph on the short course. Why, because he knew nothing about racing on the salt, just like you would know nothing. Traction on the salt and power control/aero is everything.

So again, you talk a good game but know little about any of the other forms of racing because you are a Bracket Racer on a Drag Strip.

Nothing wrong about that but similar to knowing about Boost.
You know a lot about racing a car with 12 psi of boost.
Charlie66 and others know a LOT more about racing at 35 to 60 psi of boost pressures and making the engines live. Do everyone a favor and give good advice on 12 psi of boost, 8-71 superchargers, and racing a 1974 Pontiac GTO.

Tom V.

Thats one BIG garbage post and WAY to long but i come to expect that from you! LOL!

i started off racing when i was 17 running 17's sec ET's in my Dads 390 2 barrel 68 ford......so I've improved a lot! LOL! Ive run a 1.119 60' time. I dont do other forms of racing I'm a Drag Racer (not just a bracket racer i do pro tree racing also), I go as quick as i want to go, I still quicker then 95% of the Pontiac out there and yes I said Pontiacs I race a Pontiac (apples to apples)! Most of those racers you mentioned aren't racing anymore.....I still am! I run 12 pounds of boost because I go quicker on 12 lbs of boost then most go with more. I didn't know Charlie Drag Raced, i don't think he mentioned it when we talked at Norwalk. You do everyone a favor and not be so one sided on your information it will be more helpful to others!


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

A couple of more comments:

Charlie66 started out in the boost game with a Blow thru carb (not a draw thru system like your Roots set up). He did all of the calibrating himself.
So he learned over time what his Blow thru Carb Boosted Engine "wanted" just like you have with your Methanol Carb Draw Thru system. He made decent power, especially for a 4 cylinder Pontiac boosted engine.

Then he decided to go with EFI.
So he talked to Travis Quillen and ordered up a EFI control system and parts to make it work (with a bunch of effort). Charlie66 was starting from scratch on tuning a EFI system with boost.

Some years of effort later, Charlie66 makes 4 times the horsepower of his engine displacement. His engine is slightly over 200 cid.

So you have a 526 cid engine I believe. Lets say the engine sucks up 100 hp to turn the supercharger at max rpm and you make 1300 hp at max rpm on the dyno or 2.47 hp per cid. You are really conservative because of several factors, Money being one of them. Well Charlie66 is not made of gold either. He works hard for every dollar he makes at his job. So here is Charlie66 who knows about Blow Thru Carb Boosting as well as EFI/Computer Boosting and he makes 4 hp per cid and you make 2.47 hp per cid and this is after you have been racing for over 30 years and at least 20 years you say with a boosting device on your engine.

Charlie66 has had his EFI/ Turbo stuff on his car for less than 5 years.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Charluie66 knows a lot more about boosted engines than you do after 20 years.

Finally, ask Charlie66 who he called when he had boost questions on his 4 cylinder 800 hp engine or even before that when he was thinking about going boost in the first place.
I helped him get the Boost Stuff, Travis helped him with the EFI stuff, and he did all of the other stuff HIMSELF.

So food for thought, there Mr Expert on Boosting Pontiacs. Long posts are necessary at times to give an accurate history on what has happened over the years. Charlie has lots of videos on his racing and testing his engine/car. Don't say that does not count because Billy Glidden and Big Chief have made a LOT of money on the street as well as on the strip. Same deal with Steve Grebeck before he passed.
And you know it is true.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Ok, I will give it to you in two sentences and a question.

You make short posts because you actually known very little about the subject.

I make long posts because I know a lot more about the subject and got paid to actually DO THE ACTUAL JOB for 39 years.

How is that for a reply.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

A couple of more comments:

Charlie66 started out in the boost game with a Blow thru carb (not a draw thru system like your Roots set up). He did all of the calibrating himself.
So he learned over time what his Blow thru Carb Boosted Engine "wanted" just like you have with your Methanol Carb Draw Thru system. He made decent power, especially for a 4 cylinder Pontiac boosted engine.

Then he decided to go with EFI.
So he talked to Travis Quillen and ordered up a EFI control system and parts to make it work (with a bunch of effort). Charlie66 was starting from scratch on tuning a EFI system with boost.

Some years of effort later, Charlie66 makes 4 times the horsepower of his engine displacement. His engine is slightly over 200 cid.

So you have a 526 cid engine I believe. Lets say the engine sucks up 100 hp to turn the supercharger at max rpm and you make 1300 hp at max rpm on the dyno or 2.47 hp per cid. You are really conservative because of several factors, Money being one of them. Well Charlie66 is not made of gold either. He works hard for every dollar he makes at his job. So here is Charlie66 who knows about Blow Thru Carb Boosting as well as EFI/Computer Boosting and he makes 4 hp per cid and you make 2.47 hp per cid and this is after you have been racing for over 30 years and at least 20 years you say with a boosting device on your engine.

Charlie66 has had his EFI/ Turbo stuff on his car for less than 5 years.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that Charluie66 knows a lot more about boosted engines than you do after 20 years.

Finally, ask Charlie66 who he called when he had boost questions on his 4 cylinder 800 hp engine or even before that when he was thinking about going boost in the first place.
I helped him get the Boost Stuff, Travis helped him with the EFI stuff, and he did all of the other stuff HIMSELF.

So food for thought, there Mr Expert on Boosting Pontiacs. Long posts are necessary at times to give an accurate history on what has happened over the years. Charlie has lots of videos on his racing and testing his engine/car. Don't say that does not count because Billy Glidden and Big Chief have made a LOT of money on the street as well as on the strip. Same deal with Steve Grebeck before he passed.
And you know it is true.

Tom V.

Another GARBAGE post with nonsense and only half/or not correct truths and I know this because they are about me!
You compare my engine to Charlies engine, I'm pretty sure Charlie engine was dynoed with way more then 12 lbs of boost to make what 800 HP, I'm thinking 30 lbs or more, not apples to apples. Let me put 20 plus more lbs of boost to my engine......gosh that about 600 plus more HP!! That puts me around if not over 2,000hp! Ill compare my engine and race any car (at the same weight) making around 12 lbs of boost.....Apples to Apples
For your information MONEY has been NEVER been a factor in my engine or car....i buy the BEST parts for my car/engine where they are needed!!!
For your information I have NEVER said I was a Expert on boosted Pontiacs (i know what i know)...my car and racing career/hobby speaks for itself!


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

There is some, truth to what you posted, except most is garbage because of the following reasons:

1) With your current Roots compressor Roots 8-71, 20 psi more psi (32 psi then) and you and I and BDS all know it, is impossible for that unit. You are trying to pass some BS on to the PY members.

Only a screw supercharger comes close to being able to make 30 psi and Whipple wants $6500 for the unit and you, based on your last post, lets say you could find the extra $6500 to buy the Whipple and the money for the related parts be fabricated to make it work on your pontiac.

Even a 14-71 can't make 30 psi without generating a lot of heat, but you run methanol so for drag racing you might be ok.

So Put the Whipple Supercharger that can make 30 psi on your engine, install the system, then we can talk again.
Right now it is just talk and dreaming like most of your posts. Talk directly to Art, not one of his salesmen.

Quote: "For your information I have NEVER said I was a Expert on boosted Pontiacs". Glad you admitted that finally.

Tom V.

[hgerhardt]

Tom, that recent thread on applying LS tech to a Pontiac got me thinking of something I haven't seen you post on:

What are the benefits of Direct Injection (DI) and what are we leaving on the table when boosting a Pontiac with Indirect Injection? I've read some stuff from SAE etc, but to hear it straight from the Ecoboost Expert would be really nice!

From what I understand, DI allows lots of boost at low RPM which helps with street driveability and fuel economy. Normally, I'd expect detonation sensitivity at high boost/low RPM, and apparently DI alleviates that. Are there benefits at high RPM too?

Obviously, incorporating DI into something that never had it is an enormous engineering undertaking, so your answer will be mostly academic in the Pontiac world, but would be interested in hearing your reply anyway!

[Tom Vaught]

I can only pass on what I know:

1) The Ecoboost 3.5L engines originally were designed with a Direct Injection system (capable of flowing enough fuel to make about 440 HP on the 3.5L engine).
This was after you messed with the Exhaust system downstream of the turbos and put a less restrictive air cleaner on the inlet side of the Turbos.

Neither modification was approved by Ford or the EPA but a few hot rodders in Texas did this.
THEN THEY RAN OUT OF Cam Driven FUEL PUMP CAPABILITY.

So one individual asked if he could run two direct injection pumps on a engine.
We had looked at that deal and it required a custom head to replace the head on the engine that did not have the Direct Injection Pump in production. Cost would be $40,000 for the head, A 2nd pump and the proper plumbing. And at the end of the day you got 880 hp. And some of these guys wanted 1000 hp.

So the 2016 Le Mans Race was on the horizon and we needed a lot more than 440 hp.
So we (a Fuel System Technical Specialist) and I did some testing off site and HE determined that he could use a dual fuel system. Direct Injection and Indirect Injection on the race engines.

With the Indirect Injection, we could add lots of additional fuel using injectors in the intake runners. And now we could make the power we needed.

So that is what the Le Mans engines ran and won with, (along with Custom Turbochargers that could make a lot more than 440 HP.

We had some Wastegate Mounting issues that forced us to not do as well as we would have liked in the earlier races, but we figured that deal out with a lot of help from the Ford Turbocharger Test Lab Technical Specialist. We made some exhaust part changes, put them on the race cars and ran the whole race without issues and finished in first place with the #68 car.

The Indirect Injection systems do a nice job on keeping the valve heads clean vs the DI stuff which was just the opposite. So now on the new 2019 engines we can chose if we want the engine to run in DI mode, Indirect mode, or in Combined mode, to get the HP/ Emissions/ F.E. we want.

So at high rpm there ARE ADVANTAGES to selecting which system needs to be on for a given mode of driving. The new production engines are using some of this race knowledge on the street engines.

I will not go into Ford's EFI strategies. I just answered some basic hardware questions.

So the new stuff has the ability to use both Direct and Indirect injection strategies based on the installed hardware. Each application is different: street vs racing so do not bake blanket assumptions.

Lots and lots, and lots of dyno time required to make it work well.
Thank a guy named Joe B for that knowledge. Engineers do stuff for reasons.

Hope that helps.

Tom V.

[Tom Vaught]

Sorry for the typos, I was in a hurry to get to the Post Office to mail an envelope.
Should have typed, "Thank a couple of Engineers named Joe B and Keith P for that knowledge."

Tom V.

[Half-Inch Stud]

In summary, here's is a ranking on BOOST Efficiencies vs BOOST Technologies;

1. Porting the NA Engine, adding proper Inhale &Exhale runner lengths,for Cam Overlap ( Hi-rpm reveals results)
1. Bottled N2O (will quickly damage the bottom-end when out of tune).
1. Bottled air (not popular but is a cold-charge, for brief blasts, then re-pump with air-suspension pump)
2. Electrical Turbo-Compressor (low-level boost)
3. Turbo-chargers, exhaust-driven (highest-level boost, efficiency)
3. Crank-Driven Turbo-Compressor "Pro-Charger...McCulloch" (an impressive Tech balance with Turbo-Compressors, capable of high-level boost while using crank HP)
3. Positive Displaement Vane pumps (they wear-out real bad)
4. Positive Displacement Screw (not efficient so the inhale is hotter than Turbos, but work at high-level boost)
5. Positive Displacement Roots (least efficient so the inhale is hottest, but work at high-level boost)

SCREW & ROOTs win hands-down for looks when completely under the hood.

[Tom Vaught]

FROM A LAYMAN'S PERSPECTIVE, EVERYTHING YOU HAVE POSTED IS TRUE, HIS.

1) Several of your assumptions change quite a bit if you add a Proper Inter-cooler system designed by the OEMs or by aftermarket inter-cooler experts like Corky Bell or Johnny Wang (formerly of Spearco Inter-coolers).

Robert Paxton McCulloch's centrifugal supercharger was never efficient in terms of moving airflow with its straight vane compressor wheel design.
The Ball Bearing Drive system for blade rpm multiplication slipped at boost levels over 10 psi then the supercharger's drive system failed.

The Gear Driven Superchargers designed by Jim Middlebrook and J.R. Granatelli were the first efficient compressor wheel devices. They adapted Turbocharger compressor wheels to work with the gear drive parts vs the exhaust system. They ran much cooler with a proper wheel design vs the other aftermarket units.

So in a simplistic comparison, you have a good summary.
In reality in use with the proper parts several of your assumptions change quite a bit.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud

In summary, here's is a ranking on BOOST Efficiencies vs BOOST Technologies;


5. Positive Displacement Roots (least efficient so the inhale is hottest, but work at high-level boost)

SCREW & ROOTs win hands-down for looks when completely under the hood.

For cost and simplicity Roots are by far the BEST....instant torque for the street, throw in a intercooler and you beat the heat! P.S. also fits under a 1979 TA hood!


GTO George

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by GTOGEORGE

For cost and simplicity Roots are by far the BEST....instant torque for the street, throw in a intercooler and you beat the heat! P.S. also fits under a 1979 TA hood!
GTO George

Gale Banks fabricated a Intercooler system under the Roots supercharger on the Geisler Studebaker when they ran the car in 2001 and it performed well with the system. The car was Roots powered during that event.

At the time, if I remember correctly, I was there, the engine was some version of a BB Chevy with the custom built inter-cooler parts.

If you are willing to do the fabrication work a cooled intake charge (the engine was running in a GAS class, will really like the upgrade,.
Even on a street car.

Brian H is running 7 tenths faster with his Procharger system now that he is using a proper inter-cooler in the car. Before 8.20s now 7.50s.

Tom V.

[GTOGEORGE]

As I stated before they make an inter cooler for a roots blower, pretty simple but running e85 or alky it’s not needed.


GTO George