[marc1]

I realize my question pertains to only 17 cars ever made but I have wondered about this for about 25 years now:

1) When you ordered a Judge (WT1) you received a RAIII motor as part of your $337. This motor in a base GTO was worth about $168. A 455 in a base GTO was $58. The RAIII motor more or less also got a "free" T42 package ($84) it was built into the $168 cost. So to take a base GTO to a RAIII cost you $168 and to take a base GTO to a 455 w / T42 (to keep the comparison even) took $142. This is just background to my question: If you ordered the WT1 AND the L75... did you get a credit for the powertrain cash delta? Or, worse, did you get billed for the $58 on top of the Judge option price? The 455 was essentially a cheaper engine to order than a RAIII... yet I see no evidence you received a just credit for a 455 equipped Judge. Any thoughts? Would this partially explain the low production numbers on this combination? I realize there are other factors on this (late 455 availability, the age old RAIII vs. 455 issue etc.) but if I was a buyer in 1970, I would think twice about forking over another $58 for what is essentially a cheaper motor in a base GTO.

2) Related question... if you ordered the Judge package and the 455 what happens with the T42... was it included or a mandatory option? Or could you potentially receive your 455 Judge with no RA? I know in non-Judge 455 cars it is strictly an option, some have it some don't it depended upon whether or not the car was ordered with T42.

There aren't a lot of these cars around to research and I have never seen a PHS on any of the fabled 17.

[robz]

Originally Posted by marc1

I realize my question pertains to only 17 cars ever made but I have wondered about this for about 25 years now:

1) When you ordered a Judge (WT1) you received a RAIII motor as part of your $337. This motor in a base GTO was worth about $168. A 455 in a base GTO was $58. The RAIII motor more or less also got a "free" T42 package ($84) it was built into the $168 cost. So to take a base GTO to a RAIII cost you $168 and to take a base GTO to a 455 w / T42 (to keep the comparison even) took $142. This is just background to my question: If you ordered the WT1 AND the L75... did you get a credit for the powertrain cash delta? Or, worse, did you get billed for the $58 on top of the Judge option price? The 455 was essentially a cheaper engine to order than a RAIII... yet I see no evidence you received a just credit for a 455 equipped Judge. Any thoughts? Would this partially explain the low production numbers on this combination? I realize there are other factors on this (late 455 availability, the age old RAIII vs. 455 issue etc.) but if I was a buyer in 1970, I would think twice about forking over another $58 for what is essentially a cheaper motor in a base GTO.

2) Related question... if you ordered the Judge package and the 455 what happens with the T42... was it included or a mandatory option? Or could you potentially receive your 455 Judge with no RA? I know in non-Judge 455 cars it is strictly an option, some have it some don't it depended upon whether or not the car was ordered with T42.

There aren't a lot of these cars around to research and I have never seen a PHS on any of the fabled 17.

I would think the same logic holds as was discussed in this topic (RAIII vs RAIV costs):

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ghlight=168.51

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The 455 HO came with T42 standard, on a 70 Judge.
But they didn't come with R/A exhaust manifolds.
No extra cost or credit.

Which its a shame there was no cost fluctuation, thats the main reason only ONE has been documented that we know of. PHS shows no reflection on a 70 455 HO Judge.
Because no cost or credit is involved.

I have PHS and build sheet for a Red 70 JVert 455 HO. Built in Pontiac Mich - on my crashed laptop

Its the only one we know of thats been documented (hdtp or vert).
By grace of God and a fantastic original owner, this car is an unrestored low mileage basically untouched virgin example.

As far as i know - it still resides with Gary C. in Maryland.

A similar money drop was ordering a non-Carousel Red Judge in 69, or non-Orbit Orange in 70. They were special paint charge on GTO's, but you didn't get a rebate/credit if you went with a standard Pontiac color on a Judge.

[Lloyd-TX]

I was looking for Cave's 455HO Judge docs as well, I thought that I had them for some reason.

The only 455HO '70 docs I do have are non-Judge cars.

[marc1]

Originally Posted by robz

I would think the same logic holds as was discussed in this topic (RAIII vs RAIV costs):

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ghlight=168.51

Yes that is the way the logic "should" be but it doesn't appear to be... so it's not that simple. You received a discounted RAIV with a Judge, that is well understood, verified and documented. I don't see discounted L75's with Judges.

BVZ - Interesting point on the colors... I wasn't aware of that thanks for the info. Do you think the short changing of a potential L75 / WT1 customer may have been a factor on the low numbers?

There is a 71 Judge Convert registry out there... does any one know of a 70 L75 / WT1 registry? Any thoughts on why there are zero MT L75 / WT1 cars?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

No, I don't think the non-rebate/cost was a factor.
Lack of information/poorly advised salesmen is where i place the fact that so few were built. I don't think a lot of buyers were even aware it was a no-cost alternate.

In reality and hindsight, and hands-on knowledge of these engines, I would prefer the 455HO over the RamIII if I could go back and buy one new - at same cost. Its basically a RamIII with 55 additional cubic inches. They even came with same R/A carb.

One thing that "might" have influenced the automatic buyers was an old advertising ad said something to the effect "...or opt for the new 455 powerplant with automatic and options..." . Something to that degree.

Otherwise it kind of falls in line with the 1970 RamIV Formula Firebird. None were ordered and none were built, as such.

But fwiw:

302 455HO T42 Manual GTO's
241 455HO T42 Auto GTO's

When folks come across 70 Auto Judges with non-original engines, they should really examine those closely before jumping to conclusion they were RamIII cars.

[marc1]

Thanks for your comments. The "Gary Cave" car, are there any pictures of it, does it ever come out to shows etc.? I would like to see it one day. Is this the only 1 of the 17 anybody is aware of? What color combo is it?

[Held for Ransom]

Red w/white top and red interior.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I don't think he takes it out often, if any.

He had it on ebay a couple/few years ago with lots of pix, all documents and etc..
All of that is on my bonked out laptop.

Its the only one we know of for sure that is proven legitimate.
One or two other candidates have been mentioned, but not verified.

The big problem with these things is, more probably do exist, but the owners perhaps aren't savvy enough to make the determination. And then you have the full blown collectors of rarities who remain silent for numerous reasons, a few could exist in silent mothballs.

On the PHS - they look "just like" an automatic Ram III Judge.
I think one or two were born in Canada, they would be easier/simpler to verify.

[Held for Ransom]

Yup, looks just like an ordinary Judge.

[johnta1]

Wouldn't the Judge have a 12 bolt rear end if it had the 455HO in it?

[Held for Ransom]

Yes. But again, that wouldn't show up on PHS invoicing.

[marc1]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

Yup, looks just like an ordinary Judge.

Whoa! This is not what I expected... based on my original posting I assumed that I would see a 344 option and $58 on the sheet. But to see nothing (just like a RAIII car) is extraordinary to me. Well... at least the owner didn't get charged the $58 but the implications of this are astounding and, as BVZ mentioned, you really need to look close at correct engine code 455 auto Judge cars and not assume they were necessarily transplants.

[marc1]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

Yes. But again, that wouldn't show up on PHS invoicing.

What about the pricing on the Safety-Track... usually I see $62 on the usual BOP style. This one is cheaper... is that a Type-C indicator?

[Held for Ransom]

The standard Safe-T-Track option for the GTO/Judge was $42.13 (3.23:1 w/air conditioning, 3.55:1 w/o or 3.07:1 w/455 (3.31:1 was available too but would have been an added upgrade)). The Safe-T-TrackHD would have been the $63.19 option and would have been the 3.90:1 or 4.33:1 (some say the 3.55:1 came this way too).

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I'm willing to bet at least a couple 455HO Judges have been restored as RamIII 400 due to original engine being gone.

If you bought an automatic Judge project without engine or an incorrect engine, the PHS would lead most to assume it was a Ram III car.

There are a few things you can check as to clues.
12 bolt as mentioned.
But main thing would be the chassis/frame - it carries a different part number than a 400 car. The engine mounts would be different too.

A buildsheet is always a blessing !

[John V.]

marc1, I went round and round with this same topic some years ago, raising the same questions as you. The other question was whether the 455 Judge was faster than the RAIII. That topic was a lot of fun.

There was a guy that used to post at CP that owned a '70 455 Judge Convert, bought used in '74 or '75. He claimed it had the D Port HO Exhaust Manifolds on the car when he bought it and was pretty sure the original Owner would not have added them, so he believed they must have been factory.

IIRC, he had the Building Order (not just the Invoice record) but was not interested in having it researched for clues to the type of exhaust manifolds that would have been in the car as produced. I think the T42 was identified on the Building Order but can't be sure. At the time, I was uncertain if the T42 had to be separately ordered for a 455 Judge or not.

I don't recall if he had the original Window Sticker. My recollection is that there WAS a difference in price between the RAIII Judge and 455 Judge but that may have been an assumption that I had made and was mistaken about that.

Keep in mind, SRP pricing (base & option) was somewhat arbitrary. Every option is a whole no. multiple of 0.5266 rounded off to the nearest penny. The Base price is also a multiple but rounded to the nearest dollar. I don't know why, just is. It should be obvious that the cost difference between two options didn't just happen to be multiples of 0.5266. With such an arbitrary option pricing structure, it would be no wonder if no effort was made to adjust the pricing depending on whether you wanted the 455 or the RAIII.

Regardless, I think the main reason buyers did not choose the 455 for the Judge was a perception that the 455 was a lower performance motor. Pontiac promoted it as an engine for a luxo cruiser, suited to cars with A/C and other luxo options. The wannabe racers saw the RAIII as the real muscle. In my view, this was more about gearing. A RAIII with 3.90 gears was gonna feel skittish, give the driver the impression all h*** was breaking loose. Meanwhile, the 455 (optioned equivalently) ran right with the RAIII with no fuss. It just seemed slower because it didn't feel quite as much like it was on the edge of sending the tires up in smoke with the tamer rear gearing.

The fact that the 455 used log manifolds was a handicap.

Also, there may have been some indication that the 455 was not to be available with the Judge option, although my memory says that there was no such limitation in actual production, the 455 Judge could be had right from the start. But perhaps by some misinformation, Salesmen may have been telling Buyers that the 455 was not offered with the Judge.

Given that you got the arguably stronger 12 bolt when you ordered the 455, I have always thought the 455 Judge was a comparative bargain. And whether you added HO manifolds at the dealership or installed headers, the log manifolds were easy to rectify. Unfortunately, perhaps most or all of the 455 Judges were high option cars, so a fair comparison to a RAIII Judge equipped to go fast is impossible. But I personally believe if you did choose the right options with the 455, you would not be slower than a RAIII.

However, I know from the 455 vs. RAIII debate, not everybody thinks that the 455 was the faster choice in '70.

So does anybody have an original Window Sticker from a 455 Judge?

One thing you can notice from the Invoice HFR posted, that car was invoiced on 9/29/70. It appears to have been used as a company car and then sold to Cochran Pontiac as a used but not previously titled vehicle. Another interesting thing about the documentation with this car is that there was an earlier Invoice Record that shows the car "sold" under Sales Class V, identified as a PMD Factory Co. Car to Zone 35 that is thought to be PMD Engineering. The Date Shipped was 6/5/70. Was it simply produced for use as a co. car by somebody in Engineering? Or did it have some other purpose?

I believe the 455 Judge had been available, even as a convert, long before this car was produced. So it would seem unlikely as a test bed unless related to '71 production. The fact that it was sold to a dealer in Monroeville, PA would seem to suggest that it may not have remained in Mich after it was produced. But it only remained as a co. car for less than 4 months, that also seems odd to me.

Nevertheless, it was a pretty interesting car. The asking price was way too rich for my blood. I wonder if it ever sold?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Seems like GC had the window sticker too.
And posted pic of trim tag (build week) on auction.
In another month or so, I should have access to the data/pix on that laptop.

[Lloyd-TX]

Well said as always, John.

Four months as a PMD car, I'll wager it was a "brass hat" demo - especially as highly optioned as it is.

Nearly every '70 455 GTO I've seen or have docs for has been a highly optioned cruiser.

Attached are two 70 455 GTO docs. The PHS invoice is for a Palomino Copper / Sandlewood car which is still here in Houston. Not Ram Air equipped, but check out some of the other options - like the power seat back release.

The window sticker is for a Baja Gold / Sandlewood Ram Air car which I bought from Marty Palbykin. Marty had changed the colors to a Cadillac "Plum Firemist", w/ black guts. I've lost track of that car since I sold it.

[marc1]

Bringing back an old thread... I have one other question:

Why are there no M21/L75/WT1 cars? Was it forbidden to order them that way or just complete chance that no one wanted a manual transmission 455 Judge? There are 455 M21 non-Judges (quite a few)... so not sure why this combo would be forbidden in a Judge. It just seems uncanny that not a single one was ordered. Any thoughts?