[John Langer]

I'm sure there is a minimum run order from the foundry that makes both ap and Kre blocks. Just taking a wag but I assume that minimum run order exceeds the demand both manufacturers have. There is ZERO money to be made producing and selling Pontiac blocks. ZERO. Both companies take the financial risk and hit producing blocks for our little hobby. Say they have to make 10-15 blocks to meet the minimum order. I know I would want deposits on 75% of the blocks being cast before going to production. It doesn't make financial sense to have 45 grand tied up for a 1000 return on investment. Wait till the day that both manufacturers had enough of selling blocks. Then what... no one remembers when we had to wait 12-18 months for a billet crank from moldex?

[Sirrotica]

They make the blocks as a lost leader to sell their other parts, I'm aware of that the profit margin is slim. If you don't have blocks, the heads, cams intakes, etc. are meaningless. The same thing Butler did years ago with offshore cast cranks was to keep the market alive because of the shortage of hard parts. Butler has recently expanded to LS engines as a supplement to pure Stratostreak engine building. Seems they're going to stay in business whether it's building Pontiacs or LS engines.

John, the thing is there is always a wait time for blocks, so why after 10+ years is it still the same problem? Seems both vendors are cutting their throats on sales of other parts and labor where there is a markup, by not having blocks on hand.

I.E. A racer needs a new engine and can't get a block within his time frame from either vendor. He buys a BBC and switches brands. Both vendors lose 100% of their sales from any and all parts and labor from that point forward to that customer, plus the base of Pontiac racers gets smaller one guy at a time.

Without the hard parts to build a serious race engine the whole thing will eventually go away.

[John Langer]

Don't know what labor ap has? They don't exactly build engines. They sell a block, head, intake and valley pan. The other products they sell are accessories for their block, head, intake and valley pan. All of those products were the result of a guy wanting them but they were not available. So he had them made... ap is not bob and Franks livelihood. The Pontiac market is very small. There is no supply because there isn't much of a demand.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by p4msi1

An oil pump failure in October, on my 455 gave me an opportunity to upgrade to an IA2 block and crank. I ordered and still not here. Fortunately, it's not a race car that has to be up and running quickly. Every engine build I do always take 4 times longer than I expected. I wanted to build a sbc for my c10 pick up but a quick call to Blueprint Engines had me a 383 stroker in a week. My Pontiacs will always have a Pontiac motor but I wish some of these venders would have crate engines already in stock, dynoed, crated and ready to ship. All Pontiac and Kauffman should have short blocks ready to ship at a moments notice with different stroke cranks and ci. Head options (a few port options)should be already on the shelf boxed and ready to ship. Keeping $100,000.00 in inventory is not much for a supplier like All Pontiac serving the entire world. I keep $30-40.000.00 in inventory and I'm a micro business. This only makes sense.

Steve

I THINK a better way to look at is: does the inventory have a better value in a box on the shelf or a ready to ship shortblock?

But understand a ready to ship shortblock is like building a house on spec. You ARE gambling that you will get the call. But if you have machine time that is open and you are not cannibalizing real builds for spec engines you should be good. You're keeping an employee busy while creating value.

Not an easy task to juggle.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by John Langer

Don't know what labor ap has? They don't exactly build engines. They sell a block, head, intake and valley pan. The other products they sell are accessories for their block, head, intake and valley pan. All of those products were the result of a guy wanting them but they were not available. So he had them made... ap is not bob and Franks livelihood. The Pontiac market is very small. There is no supply because there isn't much of a demand.

X2

Bob and Frank made a first class Dry Sump system for the Pontiac engine.
Maybe they sold 2 of the things (with Frank using the 3rd set-up).
Many, many Chebby and Ford guys run Dry Sump systems.
Outside of Marty P and Frank G there are only a few like Mr Fulton that have gone down that path with a Pontiac set-up.

The demand for 90% of the GOOD PARTS is just not there in the Pontiac world.

Tom V.

[JSPONT]

The reasons listed below are why someone would go BBC. If you are a racer, you need it fast. SBC and BBC are available anywhere. Order it today, it will ship out tomorrow.

[p4msi1]

There are 2 guys in this thread that switched to BBC. If they sell their stuff then there are 2 buyers that could have potentially bought new blocks. I don't believe that these blocks are a ZERO net profit and even if they are it is still no reason to not have them in stock. Either you are in business or not in business. Having customers wait for months is a good way to be out of business. Service/availability is just as important as the actual product. There is a generation coming up behind us that will need this support and availability or a BBC or LS motors will be in their future. I started my business in 1992 and if I ran it this way it would have lasted till 1993! I think there is a big upside to all this and all it requires is a little salesmanship. With everyone going forced induction and big nitrous these blocks should be flying off the shelves replacing 45 year old stuff. The crowmod could be a huge selling tool if somebody would tap into it.

Steve

[p4msi1]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

I THINK a better way to look at is: does the inventory have a better value in a box on the shelf or a ready to ship shortblock?

But understand a ready to ship shortblock is like building a house on spec. You ARE gambling that you will get the call. But if you have machine time that is open and you are not cannibalizing real builds for spec engines you should be good. You're keeping an employee busy while creating value.

Not an easy task to juggle.

Ponjohn, when in business you develop a pattern of what sells. So you would stock more of the items that sell the best, pistons ,rods, heads, blocks or whatever, but have it in stock. John Langer is right about AP not being a primary business but still....
I ordered a set of e-Heads and got them in in less than a week, that's how it's done.

[69Goat1]

So I have been saving up to get an IA II block instead of throwing it on a CC. If I ordered today how far out am I looking at to receive the block?

[ho428]

Originally Posted by John Langer

It doesn't make financial sense to have 45 grand tied up for a 1000 return on investment.

Depending on the time, say 1-2 years, and real investment numbers, a $3000-$5000 return on $50,000 is actually pretty good, especially if it helps drive sells of your support equipment and machine shop work.
CD's don't even pull in that kind of return.

Personally, I think sells of a less expensive reproduction style block would outpace race blocks by a wide margin.
You'll always have one or two racers needing a race block, but you have many more scrounging for a rebuildable core for a street or cheaper bracket engine.

[Jim Zeek]

Originally Posted by ho428

Personally, I think sells of a less expensive reproduction style block would outpace race blocks by a wide margin.
.

how can you make a block any cheaper than it already is? material costs the same. labor cost the same. cost is cost. I don't think anyone is getting rich off making blocks.

[J.C.you]

I know I sound like a broke record, but a potential decent profit in sales volume for a Pontiac block/associated parts is not in the drag race world, it's in the circle track world.

Drag race stuff would be a trickle down effect.

As long as the sportsman circle track world does not allow the latest head/block technology to compete the Pontiac can hold its own.

[twooldgoats]

Originally Posted by ho428

......
CD's don't even pull in that kind of return.

.....

Yes, but CD's are FDIC-insured.

Jim

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

I know I sound like a broke record, but a potential decent profit in sales volume for a Pontiac block/associated parts is not in the drag race world, it's in the circle track world.

Drag race stuff would be a trickle down effect.

As long as the sportsman circle track world does not allow the latest head/block technology to compete the Pontiac can hold its own.

Truth ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

There is a lot more sales potential in the circle track world than there will ever be in the drag race world. Circle track racers aren't low buck, looking for the cheapest possible price on every single part they buy. They need it and they buy it. Top circle track classes actually make a living at racing.

When your racing for a decent purse that pays $500-2500 for first place (local tracks depending on what class your in) every week for a regular show, more for special events. Most tracks pay back 20 positions weekly, you have to be there every week.

You also have to be there every week to accrue points, as the top ten positions in points get paid at the end of the year. Lots more opportunity to make more prize money, but you have to be there every week. Sponsors at the local level are easier to get, and they help defray the cost too.

These guys have spare engines, some teams have complete spare backup cars.

Years ago I mentioned to AP that they now had a product that could compete with chevy and ford on oval tracks. The response was less than enthusiastic, that pretty much says it all when it comes to selling more volume.

FWIW, Butlers have built engines for at least 3 late model teams that I know of. They also have built several engines for pulling trucks.

Pontiac jack ran a hemi Pontiac pulling mini tractor for 11 years and is now after a streamliner LSR with Pontiac power. Gordon races a Pontiac in vintage road race competition, he has mentioned that he could be switching to corporate power in the future. Roger Bollinger is very successful running a Pontiac powered Trans AM road race car. There is a definite market out there for Pontiac Stratostreak race engines in other motorsports venues other than drag racing.

JC ran a modified successfully with Pontiac power, it can be done, just not any interest with people that are content to just service the drag race hobby, and not expand their horizons any further. Big fish in a little pond syndrome.

[Dave Polichena]

I can understand your position Curt and have shared your pain. I've had more than one chat with Jason about making a switch, just can't pull the trigger. I hurt a motor twice at the end of a season, November for us, and was not able to compete for a couple of years in Division 2 races that start in February during a time when we had many races so close to each other. Waiting for parts and finding the right builder or machine shop can be hard to do in a short amount of time. If I was running BBC stuff, I could call a few friends and have something back in my car to get me by. Good luck!

[ho428]

I generally have to keep a spare block or assembled short block on hand, having to scramble to even find a rebuildable core at the moment.
I don't plan to switch anytime soon, but long term I plan to keep road racing another 10-15 years so decisions, or concessions, will have to be made.

[Jack Gifford]

I guess we all have differing motivations. Although I like being competitive, I would get zero enjoyment out of copying someone's equipment- even if it resulted in more success on the track. Although I can now afford to be more "exotic" with my machines, that certainly wasn't the case when I began pulling competition with a Pontiac (an almost-stock '58 Tri-Power). Just your average working-Joe, putting a couple kids in college, etc. As for the delays incurred by Pontiac parts procurement, I learned that the most important aspect of a points chase is to GET TO EVERY EVENT and GO DOWN THE TRACK, even if there's no chance of winning the event. Thus, when time-consuming repairs were being made, I'd swap in an available piece to KEEP COMPETING (such as putting the blower on an iron Pontiac engine while whittling out new hemi parts).
I don't disagree about the lower cost and easier availability of SBC, BBC, etc..
As long you get enjoyment out of your efforts, it's all good.

[S/st 54]

Originally Posted by Dave Polichena

I can understand your position Curt and have shared your pain. I've had more than one chat with Jason about making a switch, just can't pull the trigger. I hurt a motor twice at the end of a season, November for us, and was not able to compete for a couple of years in Division 2 races that start in February during a time when we had many races so close to each other. Waiting for parts and finding the right builder or machine shop can be hard to do in a short amount of time. If I was running BBC stuff, I could call a few friends and have something back in my car to get me by. Good luck!

You missed out on another sweet deal on a 1130hp (that's what it showed on the track)584 ci motor that was stuffed with all reeeeeally nice stuff carb/#1 stop to pan including starter and water pump for something like $12or$13k.....my good buddy Is getting out of racing sold his ATC trailer and all.

I was gona get it as my A motor but that would mean I'd have to get rid of my Pontiac stuff to do it and I just can't......








Just because I put a bbc in my GTO doesn't mean I completely gave up on Pontiac motors.....I just have to regroup and reset different goals as to what I want to accomplish with it.....Like maybe try to hit 600hp with this 1971 350 I have sitting on the floor and run it at Pontiac races or something to that sort.....

[Dave Polichena]

[QUOTE=S/st 54;5671630]You missed out on another sweet deal on a 1130hp (that's what it showed on the track)584 ci motor that was stuffed with all reeeeeally nice stuff carb/#1 stop to pan including starter and water pump for something like $12or$13k.....
QUOTE]


That would have been very tempting. That would keep me on the stop for a while

[S/st 54]

[QUOTE=Dave Polichena;5671777]

Originally Posted by S/st 54

You missed out on another sweet deal on a 1130hp (that's what it showed on the track)584 ci motor that was stuffed with all reeeeeally nice stuff carb/#1 stop to pan including starter and water pump for something like $12or$13k.....
QUOTE]


That would have been very tempting. That would keep me on the stop for a while

T1 .07
T2. 3.83
4100rpm
Leaving at 4600
33X15 w 4.30
2920lbs.......picked up 45mph in back half
Went 10.899 with those timers in 1900ft DA in Earlville in September