[wase]

Guys,
I am asking for any and all information including PHS documents, trim tag pictures, etc. to learn more about all special paint, and chrome bumper '68s.

Paint code 1 is for special paint, but what color? That number on the Billing History and on the trim Tag could represent at least, any of the four colors offered after March 68 which were the Orange, Yellow, Pink and Blue. Could there be any others colors? Fleets, Taxi's or an individuals special request?

The person who ordered my '68 new, traded in her '66 Catalina which was also specially ordered Factory Orange. That car is lost to history, but would a '66 Cat have been Carosel Red?

I agree that maybe it is unknowable what my car was painted from the factory, from the documentation available. A copy of the actual "Special Equipment" order form would clear this up, but does it exist somewhere?
It would be fine with me if my car was Carnival Red, and maybe even better if it was Autumn Bronze, But If I were asked to prove it, how would I do that?

The 29 has to do with the top color, in my case it is 1 for white convertible top.
See box # 29 at the top of the PHS copy of the "1968 GTO" order form.
Also, box # 29 at the top of the 1968 Special Equipment order form.

[wase]

I just got back from the paint place where I checked the color chips again. Happened to meet up with a much respected local restorer of national prize winning Mopars there. I asked him for his opinion on the color match. First I showed him the bolt from the car laid on the '69 Hugger/ Carosel paint chip, and he said that's it, that's the color. Next I said just a minute, I have another color for you to compare, and turned to the Packard orange. He looked closely and said "thats actually closer" but added that the chips and the car are 40 years old and if it was him he would go with the GM color. So unless the actual dealer order ever becomes available,to state otherwise, this unusual 68 would probably be mid year Carnival red.

[Joe B]

Any imput on this would be great have been told by Jim Wangers and others that carosel red came from chevy hugger orange renamed by pontiac also have been told that when someone ordered special paint that you could pick from any other GM division and use that color if the division your ordering your car from did not have that color no one has confirmed at this point with documentation that you could go outside GM for another color also there is no docs stating that pontiac made a carosel red in late 68 this is not confirmed yet to get that confirmation would be great
Joe B

[PaulatFast]

Just a recap addressing the last two posts...

Carousel Red IS the same as Hugger Orange, it was not borrowed from chevy.It is the same code, from the same GM supplier.

69 Carousel Red is NOT the same as 68 Carnivale Red, they have different codes.

68 Carnivale red is documented as being available as a special order color on the 68 GTO's.

No one has confirmed you could go outside GM for another color because you couldn't. At least that is what makes sense and not one single car has ever been documented to my knowledge.

[GTOken]

If 68 Carnival Red is a different color than 69 Carousel Red its not detectable to the naked eye. My guess is the reason for the code difference is either because of the year change or the fact that the color went from a special order color in 68 to a standard color in 69. I'm thinking the color was put out in late 68 as a test and I find it hard to believe the color would only be available for such a short time. I'm a little unclear even exactly which color code you are referring to... what are the code numbers in case I want to go the paint store and buy some 68 Carnival Red. Thanks.

[Joe B]

Originally Posted by PaulatFast

Just a recap addressing the last two posts...

Carousel Red IS the same as Hugger Orange, it was not borrowed from chevy.It is the same code, from the same GM supplier.

69 Carousel Red is NOT the same as 68 Carnivale Red, they have different codes.

68 Carnivale red is documented as being available as a special order color on the 68 GTO's.

No one has confirmed you could go outside GM for another color because you couldn't. At least that is what makes sense and not one single car has ever been documented to my knowledge.

yes that is correct carosel red and hugger orange are the same carosel red is the pontiac name and hugger orange is the chevy name this info comes to me directly from Jim Wangers this occured in 69 what is trying to be figured out is what is the orange paint on 68 GTO after march 68 is this an established GM color or a new color I agree that GM would have never used a competitor's color but this color has no code it is only under special paint
Joe B

[2manyponchos]

special order option codes for Carnival Red.

Originally Posted by gtoric

For those interested, here is a scan of the Special Order colors page from the 1968 Pontiac dealer's album.

[2manyponchos]

Seems fairly cut and dry to me...

Originally Posted by 68pongto

The DuPont formula # for Carnival Red is 4961 and Carousel Red is 5021 and they have different colors/tints in the formula

[69goatboy]

Originally Posted by PaulatFast

Carousel Red IS the same as Hugger Orange, it was not borrowed from chevy.It is the same code, from the same GM supplier.

I think you are right, but IIRC, it was called Hugger Orange if it was on a Camaro, Competition Orange if it was on a Corvette and another type of Orange (Monarch?) for a Chevelle.

I think they all fall under GM paint code 72.

[GTOken]

Originally Posted by 2manyponchos

Seems fairly cut and dry to me...

Originally Posted by 68pongto View Post
The DuPont formula # for Carnival Red is 4961 and Carousel Red is 5021 and they have different colors/tints in the formula

Ok I missed that one. Thanks.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 69goatboy

I think you are right, but IIRC, it was called Hugger Orange if it was on a Camaro, Competition Orange if it was on a Corvette and another type of Orange (Monarch?) for a Chevelle.

I think they all fall under GM paint code 72.

We still do that today.

To make matters worse, there usually is an Engineering name (ie, "Black"), a Design Studio name (ie, "Tuxedo Black") and a Marketing name (ie, "Midnight Black", "Moonless Night Black" and "Starry Starry Night Black") for each using division.

That's why it's best to always go back to the paint code.

K

PS: Of course - to Engineers there's only three or four colors anyway (white, red, black, blue and...um...I can't think of any more).

[John V.]

Wow, after a long and winding road wase, I hope you have concluded the obvious.

A Baltimore Data Plate with Paint Code 1-29 1 represents a Lower Body Color Carnival Red with Upper Fabric Top Color White. In the case of a Convertible such as this, a White Fabric Convertible Top.

Since Carnival Red was without question designated as Paint Color "1", Fisher Body-Baltimore apparently chose to add the Col. Code designation 29 between the 1's to clarify that the 2nd code was a fabric top and not an Upper Body paint color such as the 1-1 you might find on a Hardtop. The '69 fabric tops were coded by Fisher with alpha codes starting in '69.

Note, Fisher Body did not fabricate and trim the Body Assembly according to the Data Plate. They used the Trim Manifests. The Data Plate was just a compilation of some of the production info from the Trim Manifest that Fisher Body deemed useful to code on the tag. Each Plant coded the info a bit differently, so when comparing Data Plates, you really have to stick to comparing within a single Plant.

Numeric codes were often used to identify Pontiac colors that were offered as "special" extra cost colors, outside of the normal list of available exterior colors. '68 wasn't the first year that occurred. A Special Paint Regular Color request (code SPR) was probably priced less than a Special Paint Special Color request (code SPS). Don't know if that was true in '68 for Carnival Red.

Pontiac's outside ad agency exec is not likely a great source of info for special paint availability or Data Plate coding practices, I doubt he was involved in the production of any Factory Order paperwork, the coding of any Data Plate, or in the approval or disapproval of any special order request (paint or otherwise) submitted by Sales Order to the PMD Sales Dept.

I'm not aware of how Fisher Body-Baltimore would have coded a non-Pontiac issued Paint Color on the '68 Data Plate, "----" or "SPEC" or "SPECIAL" are some of the variations that show up. I do not know whether PMD would have approved a non-GM color. I won't claim this was true in '68, but if you could identify the Paint Formula Code, it would not have been odd for PMD to approve the Order and paint the car accordingly. Admittedly, the most unusual special paint colors that I have seen documented on Pontiacs have generally been Cadillac colors. But you didn't order "Ford Highland Green". If you wanted that color, you specified the formula code on the All Series Special Equipment" Order Form.

For whatever reason, Carnival Red seems to have been a popular '68 color as I've known it to have been documented on numerous '68 Pontiacs, including at least one big car IIRC (a Cat I think).

I would be interested if anybody has documented the Data Plate numeric codes for Windward Blue, Marigold Yellow, and Pink Mist that were announced at the same time as Carnival Red. I have never heard of a '68 Pontiac painted one of these colors. Also, in the case of the Blue & Yellow, how they might compare by Dupont Code to the '69 Windward Blue and Goldenrod Yellow.

[68pongto]

We use Dupont paint so I can look up most any color. The only info I could find on windward blue is listed as 69 only (Dupont # 4962, no basecoat formula, enamel only) No info on marigold yellow or pink mist. Carousel red is available in basecoat and enamel. Carnival red in enamel only. Carnival red uses in enamel 738A yellow, 700A white, 715A red, 731A orange. Carousel red uses in enamel 701A white, 764A yellow, 763A orange. So even the white, yellow, orange tints are different. Looks like carnival red has more red in it. Also Verdoro green in 67- 68 (Q) is a different code from 69 Verdoro green. 67/68 is dupont # 4947 and 69 is dupont # 5066, both available in basecoat and totally different formulas. We have some old paint books from the 60's at our shop and I will look through them to see if I can find any more info on the other colors. Scott

[68pongto]

Wase, If you could get a dupont jobber to mix a small amount of carnival red and carousel red and do spray outs, you could try to match the color. You would have to do them both in enamel, since there is no formula in chromabase for carnival red. We only mix chromabase basecoat here and do not mix enamel. I would do a spray out myself if they had a carnival red basecoat formula, but they don't. Scott

[Greg Reid]

John V., I think that I can recall at least one member here who had a Pink '68...Also, on the Ultimate GTO site, there is a Pink '68 Lemans.
I was going to post the info earlier in this thread in case wase wanted to contact the owner to verify that the special paint code 1 was for Carnival Red and not just for Special paint in general.
There was no contact info for the owner so I decided against it.
Anyway, here is a pic of the Pink LeMans.
http://ultimategto.com/cgi-bin/showc...68/68h_00226_1

[mike nixon]

There was talk a while back in the big car section about a 68 Cat that was Pink Mist originally.

In the latest issue of Smoke signals there's a Windward Blue 68 GTO featured.

Mike

[John V.]

Greg, that is one ugly color!

Scott, I'm not sure I'd want to rely on a modern mixing formula to prove that Carnival Red is not the same as Carousel Red, but from what I've looked at, I still think you are correct about it.

I was able to discover something about the history of PPG Ditzler paint codes. Prior to '69, the Ditzler codes were generally 5 digit. Blues generally started with 1, Tans/Browns/Golds with 2, Grays with 3, Greens with 4, Maroons with 5, Bronze/Orange with 6, Reds with 7, and Yellows with 8.

Then in '69, Ditzler used a new code system using a 4 digit code. Some of the older paint codes were carried over by the various automakers. But it appears that the new 4 digit codes did not share a mixing formula with any older code formula. If the old mixing formula was carried over, the old Ditzler code remained in use.

And it also looks like Ditzler grouped the codes by manufacturer rather than by color, different codes for AMC, (about 2001 to 2013), Ford (about 2035 to 2056), GM (about 2058 thru 2095), and Mopar (about 2015 to 2034). I don't why Ditzler chose to do it this way. And there are some colors that fall outside the "assigned" ranges, I don't know why.

As example, '67/'68 Verdoro Green was Ditzler code 43745. '69 Verdoro Green was Ditzler code 2095.

That would support the idea that these were two different mixing formulas.

And it probably also means that '68 Carnival Red Ditzler code 71708 was different from '69 Carousel Red with a new '69 Ditzler code 2084. And likely that '68 Marigold Yellow Ditzler code 81706 is different from '69 Goldenrod Yellow Ditzler code 2094.

I learned a little about this thru a Mopar site. Apparently there has been debate within Mopar circles about two of their '69 colors. '69 Bright Green carried a new format Ditzler code 2103. '69 Rallye Green carried the old format Ditzler code 44032.

These two paint codes had different mixing formulas, ending the debate of whether they were same colors.

But there is another interesting artifact in the discussion. A Chrysler issued bulletin from Jan. '69 identified the Ditzler code for their Rallye Green as 43898. Turns out, Ditzler code 43898 was also used by Chevy as their Rallye Green for '68/'69.

Somewhere along the way, Ditzler assigned 44032 to the Mopar Rallye Green. But the mixing formula is supposedly IDENTICAL to Chevy's 43898.

It also appears that Chrysler announced their Rallye Green as a '69 Spring Color along with Orange and Bahama Yellow.

One other interesting thing found on the Mopar Ditzler Chip Charts.

There is a note that says "FOR SPECIAL COLORS (coded 999) FURNISH THE DETROIT OFFICE WITH SERIAL NUMBER OF CAR". Apparently, Ditzler kept records of special paint color cars by VIN in their Detroit office! Rallye Green, Orange, & Bahama Yellow are listed as 999 coded. Although I don't see a similar notation on GM Ditzler Chip Charts, perhaps it was equally true when the paint color was marked ---- or SPEC on the Data Plate of a GM car.

Greg has a good thought about whether the "1" might be a general Special Paint Code or specific to Carnival Red. If a '68 Pink Mist, Marigold Yellow, or Windward Blue car could be found, that question could be answered.

For now, I think wase can be confident his car was originally Carnival Red. But it will be interesting if cars with the other colors can also be found.

[gtoric]

It is my understanding that in the time frame that we are discussing, the late '60s, a customer could order a car built by Pontiac with ANY COLOR PAINT, from ANY MANUFACTURER, from ANY CURRENT OR PAST YEAR. The only restrictions that I have read about are the Cadillac FireFrost colors, because the application and curing of this particular paint system required special equipment not installed in non-Caddy assembly plants. I've heard of early '70s Pontiacs being ordered and built with Mopar high impact colors, specifically In-Violet/Plum Crazy purple.

It is not beyond my reasoning that a customer who had a favorite vehicle, perhaps not even a GM make, and wanted his new GTO built in the same exterior color could have that request granted by PMD. For $83.20 PMD would build such a car under the SPS RPO. PMD, or GM for that matter, did not offer an orange color paint in the beginning of 1968. The availability of Carnival Red was released on March 29, 1968. Before that date a customer would have to go outside that year and manufacturer for an orange hue. Going back to the mid-'50s Packard for an orange color selection would have been possible. It was not done with regularity, but it was done.

It is conceivable that Dupont had a special department or individual whose only responsibility was to research and provide information on special order colors for all automakers. Since Dupont provided paint for all the automakers, it makes sense to me that providing special-order paint to any manufacurer would not be a big deal. In fact, since the automakers were large customers, I would think that Dupont (and Rinshed-Mason and Ditzler/PPG) would make an extra effort to provide this special service to the builders. I don't believe that paint colors were proprietary items. Perhaps the marketing names of those colors were, but not the formulas themselves.

[Joe B]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Oh, come on Mike, You know I have that unique ability to overlook the obvious.

I think we found it! in 1968 pontiac came out with 4 exterior colors in march 68 these special order colors: pink mist, carnival red, windward blue, marigold yellow were available only with the chrome front bumper mystery solved thanks for every ones input

Joe B

[PaulatFast]

Originally Posted by gtoric

It is my understanding that in the time frame that we are discussing, the late '60s, a customer could order a car built by Pontiac with ANY COLOR PAINT, from ANY MANUFACTURER, from ANY CURRENT OR PAST YEAR.... I've heard of early '70s Pontiacs being ordered and built with Mopar high impact colors, specifically In-Violet/Plum Crazy purple.

It is not beyond my reasoning that a customer who had a favorite vehicle, perhaps not even a GM make, and wanted his new GTO built in the same exterior color could have that request granted by PMD. For $83.20 PMD would build such a car under the SPS RPO. ...It was not done with regularity, but it was done.

It is conceivable that Dupont had a special department or individual whose only responsibility was to research and provide information on special order colors for all automakers. Since Dupont provided paint for all the automakers, it makes sense to me that providing special-order paint to any manufacurer would not be a big deal. In fact, since the automakers were large customers, I would think that Dupont (and Rinshed-Mason and Ditzler/PPG) would make an extra effort to provide this special service to the builders. I don't believe that paint colors were proprietary items. Perhaps the marketing names of those colors were, but not the formulas themselves.

Food for thought, at least. Though as you state "it is not beyond my reasoning" that the availability of virtually any color existed, I have to wonder, if so, where are they? You would think alot of folks would have jumped at this option, yet seemingly very few, if any actually did. The effort it would have taken to supply the special paint to the different plants that painted parts for just one car makes me wonder if the order would have just been killed by management, if so placed. These cars were flying down the production line and out the door, think of the time involved if you had a dozen cars in a day (or even in a week) that had to be matched with the fenders, hood and valance that were custom painted to match the body.

I just can't see it being the case. Surely someone knows a salesman or General Manager from a dealership back then who could shed some light on this subject.

Maybe Jim Mattison has some insight?