Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here.

          
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  #41  
Old 09-16-2019, 10:37 AM
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Charlie,

The biggest change was the firing order.

The original test engine had a 4/7 swap 242/253 with a .373/.380 lobe

The original camshaft had a tighter ICL & LSA 110/114

All of the minor changes helped even the torque out as well as allowing the engine to breathe to 6000 rpm at one atmosphere of boost.

In the end the motor really responded to the "Ford" firing order

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  #42  
Old 09-16-2019, 12:47 PM
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Steve,

If the end head bolts are in the factory location and the head is just larger then yes the brackets will bolt right up but the volute may hit the valve cover or head.
Hi Mark,

Can this be remedied for an easy install?

Steve Page

  #43  
Old 09-16-2019, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LPI View Post
Charlie,

The biggest change was the firing order.

The original test engine had a 4/7 swap 242/253 with a .373/.380 lobe

The original camshaft had a tighter ICL & LSA 110/114

All of the minor changes helped even the torque out as well as allowing the engine to breathe to 6000 rpm at one atmosphere of boost.

In the end the motor really responded to the "Ford" firing order
Nice job. What octane fuel were you using ? And timing # ? Can i ask why your going to port injection ? Is the super sniper that you have got 100 # injectors in it ? I have the Fitech 1200 which has 80 # injectors and I am out of injector at 12 lbs of boost on E-85 ...

  #44  
Old 09-16-2019, 01:11 PM
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er455 you can put Bosch 210's in your unit. There's a bit of trimming, but it's been done successfully and the software will allow the change. With enough fuel pump, that'll allow for about 1000 hp on E85.

Been following this thread for a while and really appreciate the information. Those numbers with ease of installation and tuning really makes the supercharger route pretty tempting.

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  #45  
Old 09-16-2019, 02:30 PM
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Really , can you send me the link or info on how to do that ? Has someone done it already ? Thanks

  #46  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:05 PM
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Steve,

The only way on the passenger side would be to either clock the blower up more to clear the valve cover, possible slight interference to the inner fender well.

The other option and not sure which blowers it is available but they do come with a volute that has a 90 degree exit.

92 octane pump gas

The timing map is like a "pickup stix" pile, it is all over the map hence the reason we made power and had such a flat torque curve.

A new customer wants our front mounted single 92mm LS top intake package which only works with MPFI.

Yes the Super Sniper 1250 (Holley 550-512) has 100 lb. injectors

Thank you Jl for jumping in, great information. Appreciate the info!

ER if you are looking for a Pontiac guy that is very well versed in the Fitech 1200 please call Joe at TTA Performance. He is working on a supercharged AMC 401 with the Fitech 1200.

https://ttaperformance.com/contact-us

Please anyone that has a comment, question or would like to share their experience, please feel free to post. The only way we can help the Pontiac community is to communicate.

Thank you to all of you that fly the Pontiac flag.

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  #47  
Old 09-16-2019, 03:45 PM
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Really , can you send me the link or info on how to do that ? Has someone done it already ? Thanks
It's not too hard to do actually. What you need to do is trim the shield around the new injectors and slide them in place. They'll fit a bit loose, but once the fuel rail is back on, they are held in place snug. THe picture below shows the connectors and is for an adapter add. adapters won't work because the injector won't fit between the body and rail at that point.

FiTech injectors on top Bosch injectors on the bottom.



Once you have the injectors installed, it's simply a matter of changing the flow rates of the injectors within the software. You can either do that via the ProCal software or on the hand held under the pro-tuning section.

The only thing you really need to watch out for there is the flow rating and at what PSI. If those 210's are rated at 43.5psi and your system runs 58 PSI, the flow rate is actually higher and you can run into some fueling issues as a result. Some of that will be trial and error of course, but there's some flow calculators out there that may help.

Another thing you might want to consider if doing this, would be your initial injector sizing. The FiTech 1200PA runs 8, 80lb/hr injectors, but commonly is only using 4 of those until a bit beyond 50% throttle or if power demands due to boost require it. The system then fires the additional 4 injectors.

This allows the system to simultaniously be able to provide large quantities of fuel for high power, while retaining better duty cycles for more efficient fueling at lower power demands.

As a result, it's possible and depending on the setup, may be ideal to run a smaller initial injector with larger secondary injectors. You can mix and match here. So er455 for you on your deal, it may be worth trying out a set of Bosch 210's just on the secondaries and leaving the 80 lb/hr injectors on the primaries.

If you or anyone has any further questions on that deal, feel free to DM me. I don't want to clutter up LPI's thread here.

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  #48  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:20 PM
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Thanks Jason , going on vacation this week but will contact you when I get ready to upgrade the injectors ....

  #49  
Old 09-16-2019, 04:59 PM
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Steve,

The only way on the passenger side would be to either clock the blower up more to clear the valve cover, possible slight interference to the inner fender well.

The other option and not sure which blowers it is available but they do come with a volute that has a 90 degree exit.
Would the Drivers Side brackets have the same install concerns?

  #50  
Old 09-16-2019, 05:58 PM
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Charlie, if you have any input as to your experience or though as to why the switch to a cast iron head versus the E-head did not as we also predicted increased the restriction and the boost pressure.

I think the cam being bigger this time helped with the smaller runners. Where with the bigger runners and the smaller cam it was corked up . Which kept the boost level the same. I think your next test should be to simply put the E-heads back on with this new cam and see what happens..

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  #51  
Old 09-22-2019, 10:36 AM
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Thanks Charlie for your input, we will get there with another test.

For anyone interested in a graph, here are some pulls graphed with notes below.
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  #52  
Old 09-23-2019, 08:57 PM
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Here is a top view of the position for the passenger side mount supercharger volute in relationship to the valve cover.
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  #53  
Old 09-29-2019, 02:38 PM
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Any details on this kits price? You can PM me if needed.

Which SC would you recommend for us street guys not looking for over 800hp let alone 830whp?

Do you still recommend keeping the rpms low to save the stock block from higher rpm harmonics?

What's highest rpm you recommend spinning it, I'm tweaking my governor the coming weeks for this mod at Jimmy's Trans near you, I'd drop off after if you're taking cars in.

Thanks
Mike

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  #54  
Old 09-29-2019, 08:53 PM
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Vortech offers a "S-i" Supercharger "S-Trim Improved", that can make 675 HP with no issues. The "T-Trim" Supercharger can make 820 HP on most engines and made 862 on Mark's engine run years ago. Nice thing about the belt stuff is you can increase the size of the driven (blower) puller and make a lower HP with just a pulley swap. Everything else stays the same usually. Maybe a slightly larger drive pulley and belt length required.

Tom V.

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  #55  
Old 12-21-2019, 06:18 PM
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Default 1969 Firebird W/ 440 Pontiac Vortech YS supercharger

Here is a picture of the completed installation in the customers 1969 Firebird convertible.

It has our hydro boost kit which is compatible with the supercharger as well as our upgraded low rpm high amperage alternator.

If anyone has a question please post up to help others.

We are almost done installing a new system on a 1970 Pro Touring Trans Am, we will follow up on another thread with pictures and modifications for the installation.

Thank you to everyone that takes the time to go down the boost path, you guys are the true hero's!
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  #56  
Old 12-23-2019, 08:45 AM
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Just saw this on FB too.

Am interested to learn why the tque and hp spread is so small?

Incredible numbers from a simple combo.

  #57  
Old 12-23-2019, 01:14 PM
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The pull is from 3000 to 6000.
The vortech supercharger is efficient as far as moving air mass across the whole
3000 to 6000 curve.
The air mass is following the rpm curve because the supercharger is tied to the engine by the belt. Turbochargers can have very quick rise times and then they flat-line due to the wastegate. The Vortech stuff quickly rises to the high efficiency island and then moves across the map with the rpm change until it reaches the max lbs per minute of mass flow before entering the Choke Lines on the map.

You are a smart guy, take a good look at the YSi-B supercharger map.
The YSi-B unit is good for over 1000+ hp and I am sure Mark's customer did not ask for a 1000+ hp street car therefore the supercharger is not running at its maximum potential.
100 lbs per minute is over 1000 hp. The dyno test was at least 200 hp below the superchargers potential airflow capability.

Tom V.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 12-23-2019 at 01:19 PM.
  #58  
Old 12-23-2019, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
The pull is from 3000 to 6000.
The vortech supercharger is efficient as far as moving air mass across the whole
3000 to 6000 curve.
The air mass is following the rpm curve because the supercharger is tied to the engine by the belt. Turbochargers can have very quick rise times and then they flat-line due to the wastegate. The Vortech stuff quickly rises to the high efficiency island and then moves across the map with the rpm change until it reaches the max lbs per minute of mass flow before entering the Choke Lines on the map.

You are a smart guy, take a good look at the YSi-B supercharger map.
The YSi-B unit is good for over 1000+ hp and I am sure Mark's customer did not ask for a 1000+ hp street car therefore the supercharger is not running at its maximum potential.
100 lbs per minute is over 1000 hp. The dyno test was at least 200 hp below the superchargers potential airflow capability.

Tom V.

As when spec'n a turbo you should plot the coordinates on the compressor map for the blower as well?

  #59  
Old 12-23-2019, 11:29 PM
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In both cases, Turbo or Centrifugal Supercharger, you would plot Pressure Ratio vs Lbs per Minute (mass flow) and see what efficiency island the compressor would spend most of its time in thru out the dyno pull.

Tom V.

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  #60  
Old 01-01-2020, 10:42 PM
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Ponjohn

"Am interested to learn why the torque and hp spread is so small?"

I just posted an example of a similar style graph pulled from a google search.

The only reason, to explain that a horsepower and torque curve can be different for the following reasons:

1. Boosted engine
2. A different type of firing order camshaft ("C" firing order")
3. Electronic fuel injection (with timing control)

First, the reason for the graph is only to illustrate that we have entered a new age of power and tuning capabilities based on the use of electronic fuel injection with timing control.

The EFI being the similar component in these two examples.

Without going into a huge dissertation on dyno testing a new combination lets just say the graph especially on the torque side did not look anything like it ended up except for the fact that we had a large resolution on the timing control side.

When you go to look for a monitor or other electronic devices you are always looking at and comparing "resolutions", in most cases a higher resolution allows for a better outcome.

The Holley Super Sniper used in this situation has a 31 x 31 resolution timing matrix. We used every cell and in many cases a group of cells are different everywhere.

In our experience and opinion, resolution on the timing side of an EFI system is probably the most powerful, safest and most useful option to look for.

Thus the ability to change the timing points in hundredths as well as being able to change the timing values at different rpm's at different loads (MAP) allows you to make the engine very happy.

Compare this to a "locked out" timing or an interpolated three or five point linear slope, you just cannot make the engine happy nor optimized.

In another thread someone asked why a Pontiac motor can't act like or produce the results of an "LS". We believe with the right components we can meet and or exceed what the competition has to offer.

Yet in another thread someone asked why a Subaru can do what it can, again the answer is EFI/DFI.

We spent nine hours on the dyno that was equipped with some very intelligent sensing capabilities which allowed us to go to the cliff's edge.

Based on the data while utilizing pump gas for this combination, we were still 25% on the safe side of the cliff's edge. This is Pontiac Excitement!
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