[Dragncar]

What are your guys experiences with restricted pushrods ? I have always run restricted lifter bores with good success.
Current engine has not had the lifter bores drilled and tapped so I was just considering doing it with pushrods and giving the lifter itself full oil flow. Its a extra 50 bucks for .050 restricted pushrods vs the .040 restricted plugs and the time to do it myself.
Thanks for any feed back.

[Stan Weiss]

How much more oil will you have flowing down onto the spinning crank and rods with the push rods restricted verses with the lifter bores restricted?

Stan

[mgarblik]

I prefer restricting the lifter bores. You get the extra small benefit of slightly higher pressure in the main galleries and more oil for the bearings. Restricting at the very end of the oiling system, (re) the push rods, provides multiple leak points along the lube chain. I have run Pontiac's both ways, BTW. .050" restrictor push rod tip still puts tons of oil up top.

[Steve C.]

What solid roller lifter is in use ?

Opinion....

"Dave Bisschop commonly uses Crower solid-roller lifters in his
engines simply because he’s most comfortable with them. He typically doesn’t use lifter bore
restrictor in the engines he builds because, for him, the Crower lifter adequately restricts oil flow
through the lifter body, and the roller wheel’s needle bearings rely upon the pressurized oil for
effective lubrication. Bisschop feels that less oil flow than what’s available from the Crower lifter
can potentially lead to rocker arm damage and premature valve spring wear, and if oil control still
seems to be an issue, he then uses a restricted pushrod for limitation."

Source here under oil tech:
https://butlerperformance.com/rt-4939-tech.html


( Information provided in this post does not represent any endorsement. And unless specified it is not based on personal experience and is offered for general interest only )


.

[Steve C.]

Side topic that might come up. According to Crower Tech....

If bushed solid roller lifters sit for any length of time not driven then the bushed lifters don't retain their oil. It drains out. Then if started dry it could be hard on them with potential issues. Needle bearings retain the oil, thus no dry start.


And as most know Crower does not recommend to restrict their solid roller lifters. Again, their opinion.
.

[Dragncar]

Crower lifters. Standard ones without the pin oiling option.

[Steve C.]

without the pin oiling option.

OUCH ! Send them back to Crower for a upgrade. Two weeks.


.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

without the pin oiling option.

OUCH ! Send them back to Crower for a upgrade. Two weeks.


.

What do you mean ? I have had them so long I think it was before they even offered it. How much for the modification ?
I have some Comp lifters in my 455 right now. Bought them used, had them in forever. I do not think they come with it either. Lash never changes.
Its one of the reasons I want more oil at the lifter itself with no Hippo upgrade..

[mysticmissle]

pin oiling option was in the 250 range if i remember correctly. i got mine bushed at the same time.
I would be curious how long an oil impregnated bronze bushing could go dormant before running out of adequate oil? That is a strong statement by the crower tech.
a needle bearing could drip dry/clean just as well one would think? needles are hardened so they will not retain oil, where a bushing is impregnated and pourous. the wheel must hold adequate oil to maintain oil to enough needle bearings to suffice a long dormancy.
i have run crower soild rollers in two motors with 030 restrictors in the block. needle bearing and then bushed. so far no lifter related issues in either application. I know Langer thinks there is some robbed power from the bushings. He would know, i would rather have bronze go thru the motor than a needle bearing and a couple extra HP

[krisr]

I've always worked on the smallest diameter hole in the oil path is what will create the restriction and in my case it's the stainless crower rocker arms. If my memory serves me correct, the oil hole in the rocker arm would be around 0.040-0.060", why would that not be enough if the lifter bore clearance was right?

[Steve C.]

"Needle bearings retain the oil"

Probably not a good choice of wording on my part. Maybe the bearing type lifters retain some oil around the needles.

Crower Rebuilt info:

https://www.crower.com/rebuilt-your-roller-lifters


.

[Steve C.]

"...friction plays a key role in the move from flat tappets to rollers and this is where the needle-roller still reigns supreme according to our brain trust, in large part due to the minimal contact patch between the needle rollers, wheel, and shaft. "The friction difference can be seen on a Spintron, especially in startup torque. However, we have never seen a difference on the dynamometer," Trent Goodwin, of Comp Cams, told us."

"First and foremost, everyone agrees that moving to a modern, pressurized oil lifter is the most important improvement you can make to a traditional valvetrain. The typical high-performance racing lifter of the past relied entirely on splash oiling to stay lubricated, meaning that the lifter and roller could be starved at idle or during continuous low-rpm cruising. This is fine in the high-maintenance, high-rpm world of drag racing, but falters in street applications."

This keyway needle-roller lifter has a channel on the side for pressurized oil from the lifter galley. Every application can benefit from this, so if your old-school block is still sporting rock-solid, splash-oiled lifters, it might be worth the investment for the increased durability.


Quick Tech: The Differences Between Bushed- and Needle-Roller Lifters

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/quic...oller-lifters/

"When Morel introduced the bushing lifter back in the 80's restricting the oil was the hurdle that ended its production by them. Lack of oil to the bushing lifter will lock it up and lifter will just skip across the lobe."

Chris Straub
Mfg Performance Parts


.

[Steve C.]

Very important here... that statement I made in my post #5 above regarding what Crower said came from John. He talked with a tech guy yesterday regarding my second Crower solid roller lifter failure. Maybe the tech guy pulled that statement out of the air just to get John off the phone !

I have the Crower Cutaway Severe-Duty roller lifters w/HIPPO option in use. Only one lifter has failed each time, other than the one all the others looked fine. Crower had no clue as to why the first time. The first failure was a few years ago after 5000 or so street miles and they were needle bearing type. I bought a new lifter and the others were rebuilt and changed to bushed lifters. Fast forward and a few weeks ago I lost another lifter after about 2600 street miles. They are now being sent back to Crower. After the phone conversation with John they want me to go back to needle type lifters.

A fwiw, my oil pressure has been fine and for a bushed type lifter the spring pressure is not intense. I have a T&D shaft system in use, Luhn oil pump, synthetic oil, hollow stem intake valves, titanium retainers, etc, etc.... quality parts. And we stay on top of checking valve lash and spring pressure. With all this in mind I'm replacing the .709" lift UltraDyne MSP solid roller cam for something that has the same .050" duration, less intense opening closing ramps and slightly less valve lift. I'm working with Tim at Bullet Racing Cams on another UltraDyne cam. In addition it will require less spring pressure. This is street only and not raced anymore.


.

[Bill Meyer]

Something to consider when choosing your method of restricting oil to the top end, especially when using a seasoned (stock) block. Over time the lifter bores have increased in size, giving loose fitting lifters. When priming a block with the valley cover off, it is quite obvious that you have a good sized oil leak around the lifter bodies. Multiply this by 16 and you are losing valuable oil supply. If this is the case, then putting restrictors in the block makes more sense. Virgin original blocks or aftermarket blocks don't have this issue. Also, sizing the lifter clearance in aftermarket blocks with bushings makes the most sense. In doing so, I use the hole in the bushing as a restricter. Of course, "top end" manufacturers will tell you different as they want all the oil on their parts. Bill...

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

pin oiling option was in the 250 range if i remember correctly. i got mine bushed at the same time.
I would be curious how long an oil impregnated bronze bushing could go dormant before running out of adequate oil? That is a strong statement by the crower tech.
a needle bearing could drip dry/clean just as well one would think? needles are hardened so they will not retain oil, where a bushing is impregnated and pourous. the wheel must hold adequate oil to maintain oil to enough needle bearings to suffice a long dormancy.
i have run crower soild rollers in two motors with 030 restrictors in the block. needle bearing and then bushed. so far no lifter related issues in either application. I know Langer thinks there is some robbed power from the bushings. He would know, i would rather have bronze go thru the motor than a needle bearing and a couple extra HP

X2 with Crower lifters. Cam and lifter companies always want maximum oil on their parts to limit oil related failures, I understand that. My only comment is that the Pontiac oiling circuit puts an extraordinary amount of oil to the valve train at the expense of the main and rod bearings in high RPM, high load race engines. All things being equal, more oil is better, but all things are not equal in a Pontiac race engine. Street engine, 5500 RPM's let her flow unrestricted. Plenty of oil for everybody.

[racegto65]

FWIW I have always run restricted lifter bores in my race engines.
I was seeing a pressure drop at the end of a run because of still flooding the top end so I added restricted pushrods and now run both.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by mysticmissle

pin oiling option was in the 250 range if i remember correctly. i got mine bushed at the same time.
I would be curious how long an oil impregnated bronze bushing could go dormant before running out of adequate oil? That is a strong statement by the crower tech.
a needle bearing could drip dry/clean just as well one would think? needles are hardened so they will not retain oil, where a bushing is impregnated and pourous. the wheel must hold adequate oil to maintain oil to enough needle bearings to suffice a long dormancy.
i have run crower soild rollers in two motors with 030 restrictors in the block. needle bearing and then bushed. so far no lifter related issues in either application. I know Langer thinks there is some robbed power from the bushings. He would know, i would rather have bronze go thru the motor than a needle bearing and a couple extra HP

Langer was breaking the bushings I believe. That will rob some power.
Its no cure all but I run Lucas in everything I own. It leaves a thin slimy film of oil on everything. Even if you pull a static part like a distributor you notice the film. It has to help with dry starts.
But with big time spring pressure I would not go anywhere near a bushed lifter. Jesel's are needle bearing and the best. Langer spoke in a old post on this stuff about Jesel taking the beating of 1"+ lift and huge spring pressures for multiple seasons. I feel good about not breaking the set I have.

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

"...friction plays a key role in the move from flat tappets to rollers and this is where the needle-roller still reigns supreme according to our brain trust, in large part due to the minimal contact patch between the needle rollers, wheel, and shaft. "The friction difference can be seen on a Spintron, especially in startup torque. However, we have never seen a difference on the dynamometer," Trent Goodwin, of Comp Cams, told us."

"First and foremost, everyone agrees that moving to a modern, pressurized oil lifter is the most important improvement you can make to a traditional valvetrain. The typical high-performance racing lifter of the past relied entirely on splash oiling to stay lubricated, meaning that the lifter and roller could be starved at idle or during continuous low-rpm cruising. This is fine in the high-maintenance, high-rpm world of drag racing, but falters in street applications."

This keyway needle-roller lifter has a channel on the side for pressurized oil from the lifter galley. Every application can benefit from this, so if your old-school block is still sporting rock-solid, splash-oiled lifters, it might be worth the investment for the increased durability.


Quick Tech: The Differences Between Bushed- and Needle-Roller Lifters

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/quic...oller-lifters/

"When Morel introduced the bushing lifter back in the 80's restricting the oil was the hurdle that ended its production by them. Lack of oil to the bushing lifter will lock it up and lifter will just skip across the lobe."

Chris Straub
Mfg Performance Parts


.

I just got off the phone with Crower and asked about the option. He told me it was not worth it unless you get them rebuilt. Only 100$ if rebuilt but if only getting them pin oiled its much more. Said to just run them and send them in when they need rebuilt. Rebuilding is not cheap, around 350$ You can buy a basic solid roller lifter from them for under 400$ In a drag engine I think its a wash.
I have had, used when I bought them Comp lifters in since 08. Never a blip of trouble. But I quickly bring my engine up to a 3000RPM when cold until I see the temp gauge move. Run a fast 1500RPM idle at the track and strop and start the engine in line. Comp does not rebuild them anymore. They will give you 200$ off a new set so they are 400$.
So, if Comp gets 600$ for their basic Pontiac roller lifter and Crower gets under 400 for theirs.. what is the better lifter ?
Steve, asked about new bolts for those rods I bought fro you. 227$ so not so bad. They do not even make a billet rod with straight sides anymore. All tapered Maxi Lites that go from a 1-5 based on weight for the HP being run.

Guys, do any of you have the plug size, drill size and tap size for doing your own lifter restriction ? I did my own years ago with solid SS plugs I bought from Whittmore and drilled myself to .030. Machine shop did the drilling and tapping then but my block is out of the machine shop now. You guys that drill and tap yourself do you do it free hand or use a fixture to help with alignment ?

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by Steve C.

Very important here... that statement I made in my post #5 above regarding what Crower said came from John. He talked with a tech guy yesterday regarding my second Crower solid roller lifter failure. Maybe the tech guy pulled that statement out of the air just to get John off the phone !

I have the Crower Cutaway Severe-Duty roller lifters w/HIPPO option in use. Only one lifter has failed each time, other than the one all the others looked fine. Crower had no clue as to why the first time. The first failure was a few years ago after 5000 or so street miles and they were needle bearing type. I bought a new lifter and the others were rebuilt and changed to bushed lifters. Fast forward and a few weeks ago I lost another lifter after about 2600 street miles. They are now being sent back to Crower. After the phone conversation with John they want me to go back to needle type lifters.

A fwiw, my oil pressure has been fine and for a bushed type lifter the spring pressure is not intense. I have a T&D shaft system in use, Luhn oil pump, synthetic oil, hollow stem intake valves, titanium retainers, etc, etc.... quality parts. And we stay on top of checking valve lash and spring pressure. With all this in mind I'm replacing the .709" lift UltraDyne MSP solid roller cam for something that has the same .050" duration, less intense opening closing ramps and slightly less valve lift. I'm working with Tim at Bullet Racing Cams on another UltraDyne cam. In addition it will require less spring pressure. This is street only and not raced anymore.


.

I just had the same thing happen. 1 went bad the rest were good. Mine had around 5000 K on them as well. Crower told me to stay with needle when i asked about bushed . 295lbs on the seat though..

[Mike Davis]

Originally Posted by Dragncar

I just got off the phone with Crower and asked about the option. He told me it was not worth it unless you get them rebuilt. Only 100$ if rebuilt but if only getting them pin oiled its much more. Said to just run them and send them in when they need rebuilt. Rebuilding is not cheap, around 350$ You can buy a basic solid roller lifter from them for under 400$ In a drag engine I think its a wash.
I have had, used when I bought them Comp lifters in since 08. Never a blip of trouble. But I quickly bring my engine up to a 3000RPM when cold until I see the temp gauge move. Run a fast 1500RPM idle at the track and strop and start the engine in line. Comp does not rebuild them anymore. They will give you 200$ off a new set so they are 400$.
So, if Comp gets 600$ for their basic Pontiac roller lifter and Crower gets under 400 for theirs.. what is the better lifter ?
Steve, asked about new bolts for those rods I bought fro you. 227$ so not so bad. They do not even make a billet rod with straight sides anymore. All tapered Maxi Lites that go from a 1-5 based on weight for the HP being run.

Guys, do any of you have the plug size, drill size and tap size for doing your own lifter restriction ? I did my own years ago with solid SS plugs I bought from Whittmore and drilled myself to .030. Machine shop did the drilling and tapping then but my block is out of the machine shop now. You guys that drill and tap yourself do you do it free hand or use a fixture to help with alignment ?

Do them yourself. 1/4-20 tap, brass set screws .250 long. Don't even have to drill the hole.
I drill them .062 since I still drive on the street. I run the Crower 66260.