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THE LOBBY A gathering place. Introductions, sports, showin' off your ride, birthday-anniversary-milestone, achievements, family oriented humor. |
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#41
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Ok, how's this for weird - the early speculation on the B-17 brought down by misfueling with Jet A fuel was discussed here. It's not entirely off the table until the NTSB rules, but I suggested it's not that uncommon.
Last weekend a piston twin was brought down by misfueling with Jet A. https://www.tampabay.com/news/hillsb...eon-ntsb-says/ The weird part is the pilot was part of a deal I had going with the sale of one of my airplanes. I never met him personally, but I had the deal on my L39 sealed. Didn't hear from anyone for a few days and then found our why - one of the buyers was this guy. A small, sometimes tragic world. |
#42
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NTSB or not, there is no doubt in my mind... the crew knew what the difference was and would see it on the fuel trucks. Mac was usually one of the guys up on the wing doing the refueling. That I can attest too as I was/am a Tour Coordinator here and was right there with them all the time they were here at KILG/New Castle County Airport.
Tell me what color 100 LL is, and the color of AVJetA. Without looking it up online. Besides that, the lady spokeswoman for the NTSB had said they'd already tested the fuel the day after the crash from the remaining wing, and it was 100LL.
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Gary Get in, ShuT Up, Hang On! Member of the Baltimore Built Brotherhood MY GTO built 4th Week of March 1966 "Crusin' Is Not A Crime" Keep yer stick on the ice. |
#43
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Quote:
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#44
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You passed the test HH62.
Do you remember 80 octane aircraft fuel? It's color was... ? I pumped a lot of AV JetA, 80 and 100(not 100LL) back in the late 60s and early 70s. Yes. I'm and old aviation SOB. LOL
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Gary Get in, ShuT Up, Hang On! Member of the Baltimore Built Brotherhood MY GTO built 4th Week of March 1966 "Crusin' Is Not A Crime" Keep yer stick on the ice. |
#45
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The NTSB press release from 2 weeks ago was not the final report - keep that in mind.
And yes, as a pilot, A&P and aeronautical engineer, I have a hard time getting my head around the thought of pumping Jet A into a piston aircraft, but even with nozzle restrictors, it happens. |
#46
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80/87 was red and smelled like lighter fluid. O-200s and O-320s loved it. We had to find a vendor for it (Avfuels) in the mid 1980s due to all the lead fouling problems we were having using 100LL in lower performance engines that didn’t operate in a heat range high enough to keep TEL from accumulating on exhaust valve seats, valve faces and valve stems and guides. A buddy of mine would run a tank full through the Jet Ranger he flew just before it was due for an HSI (hot section inspection).
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#47
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Quote:
__________________
“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#48
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Well, it's unfortunate that you (or me) were not on the line at Kokomo last Saturday. It appears the line guys worked really hard to overcome the nozzle restrictors and pump a bunch of kerosene into a gasoline burner.
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#49
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Poorly trained linemen speak volumes about the quality of service at an FBO. Many FBOs insist on hiring kids as young as 16 and turn them loose with multi million dollar aircraft. It’s a recipe for disaster.....
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#50
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I sure hope they were fired for doing that. When I was a lineman I was taught... actually it was drilled into my head... that if I didn't know I was to ask what to do and get an answer from those that knew the answer to my question. Always ask the pilot what he wanted pumped into the tanks, and make sure you had the product he wanted. If not you went and got it... NO substitutions allowed.
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Gary Get in, ShuT Up, Hang On! Member of the Baltimore Built Brotherhood MY GTO built 4th Week of March 1966 "Crusin' Is Not A Crime" Keep yer stick on the ice. |
#51
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#52
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Have we now determined that the aircraft was mis-fueled? I seem to have missed that.
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"Democracy is a beautiful thing, except for that part about letting just any old yokel vote." ~Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts |
#53
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No confirmation, Mr. D. Initially, the NTSB tested the remaining fuel in the right wing tanks and found it to be constant with 100LL Avgas. Only lab testing will be able to establish if 9-0-9 was the victim of a cross fueling incident.
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#54
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Bob- the B-17 in the OP seems to have the proper avgas in the tanks, though nothing is entirely off the table until the final report. The recent crash of another airplane in post #48 DOES indicate misfueling. I only brought up the second crash to illustrate the frequency of this highly preventable occurrence and also my personal connection to it.
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#55
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Read this morning the NTSB ruled out the misfuel possibility. I assume the report is accurate.
george
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"...out to my ol'55, I pulled away slowly, feeling so holy, god knows i was feeling alive"....written by Tom Wait from the Eagles' Live From The Forum |
#56
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George, if the fuel passed specific gravity testing there was no cross fueling or misfueling incident. Since Jet A weighs more than 100LL(6 lbs per gallon 6.7 lbs per gallon), the specific gravity would be distorted. When misfuels were happening with great regularity in the late 1980's I attended the Chevron aircraft fuel "school". It was a two day seminar put on free of charge by Chevron(our supplier). The lab guys got a little deep in the woods, but what you learned was how little Jet-A it took to make 100LL unstable and terribly dangerous. If I remember correctly, five gallons of Jet-A into 100 gallons of 100LL lowered the octane rating by 10-15 points. That is enough to trigger severe detontation in a turbocharged aircraft engine.
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#57
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NTSB preliminary report is out. Fuel consistent with 100LL.. From the pilot’s conversations with ATC, it sounds like severe mag problems or a mag failure coupled with too little altitude while flying in the pattern. ATC directed 9-0-9 in a right hand pattern, which kept the aircraft turning into the bad #4 engine.
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“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” Dr. Thomas Sowell |
#58
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Saw that report on Youtube. They also said that the ground crew was working on both #4 mags before takeoff as they appeared wet, plus the humidity was 78%. Hard to believe that with 3 turning they couldn't gin altitude with what was a very light load for a B-17.
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"Democracy is a beautiful thing, except for that part about letting just any old yokel vote." ~Jack Handey, Deep Thoughts |
#59
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So sorry to hear about the loss of life and this wonderful machine. Nine O Nine was a regular visitor at Burbank Airport in years past.
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#60
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This isn't fact, but I heard this morning that #3 had also quit on them. If so that could be what put them into the glycol tanks. Yes a 17 can fly on 2 engines, but not with two on the same side running. Two on the same side... in this case only 1 and 2 running would push them to the right. I don't think the rudder could keep them heading straight, and pulling power to do that would put them into the ground sooner. Possibly it's the reason they clipped the approach lights before getting to the runway. Just my speculation, but if true it's entirely possible.
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Gary Get in, ShuT Up, Hang On! Member of the Baltimore Built Brotherhood MY GTO built 4th Week of March 1966 "Crusin' Is Not A Crime" Keep yer stick on the ice. |
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