[ponyakr]

So, I've asked some questions about possibly using 455 Olds pistons in a 400 build.

But, I wanna bring it up again. The reason is because the dreaded "8-eyebrow" pistons are the only cheap cast 400 pistons available, as far as I know.

There are 455 Olds cast pistons, for less than $250, on Ebay. They have a .120 dish, & a 1.720 pin height.

It was mentioned on a previous thread that the Olds pistons might hit the crank counterweights.

So, has anybody tried any 455 Olds pistons, in a 400 Pontiac build ?

Any reasons why this definitely won't work, for sure ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Silv-O-Lite...IAAOSwzbxaZ81S

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Olds-455-Pi...cAAOSwg3FUj1g~

https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Set-Zolln...ry!71251!US!-1

I'd prefer to pay $100 more for SP forged pistons. But, there are lots of low budget guys who need to save all they can. Also, some who wanna use the small chamber heads, but run pump gas. The small dish might be just enuff to make a decent CR, with small chamber heads. ???

[Mike Davis]

Basically like you stated for $100 more you can get a set of Forged pistons that work and will get better/longer service out of.
I would not trust cheap cast pistons in a bracket car.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speed-Pro-F...ry!30655!US!-1

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Mike Davis

Basically like you stated for $100 more you can get a set of Forged pistons that work and will get better/longer service out of.
I would not trust cheap cast pistons in a bracket car.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speed-Pro-F...ry!30655!US!-1

Not for a bracket car. For a low budget guy, planning a mild street 400 build.

[steve25]

I don't know how much power your looking to make, but at a 400 hp level your leaning on a cast piston pretty dam hard!

Pontiac saw fit to use a forged piston at the 366 hp level on a motor that could still make peak power above 5200 rpm for example.

Never skimp on short block parts as it will always come back to haunt you in time!

[Mike Davis]

Originally Posted by steve25

I don't know how much power your looking to make, but at a 400 hp level your leaning on a cast piston pretty dam hard!

Pontiac saw fit to use a forged piston at the 366 hp level on a motor that could still make peak power above 5200 rpm for example.

Never skimp on short block parts as it will always come back to haunt you in time!

Agree and with the cheap crappy cast pistons of today and the poor quality of gas it will show up a lot sooner than back then.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by steve25

I don't know how much power your looking to make, but at a 400 hp level your leaning on a cast piston pretty dam hard!

Pontiac saw fit to use a forged piston at the 366 hp level on a motor that could still make peak power above 5200 rpm for example.

Never skimp on short block parts as it will always come back to haunt you in time!

(1) This is NOT for me. It's for a guy's LOW BUDGET, very MILD street only build, on another forum.

(2) This engine will not have anywhere near 400 hp. May be closer to 300, than 400. The emphasis of this build is LOW BUDGET, rather than high power.

(3) Will operate UNDER 5000 rpm. Like many mild street builds, probably under 3000 rpm, most of the time.

(4) Pontiac did NOT see fit to use forged pistons in MY 366hp '69 RA3 engine. It had cast pistons, cast rods, & 2-bolt main caps. The cast pistons did just fine for 60k+ street miles, then 2 full seasons of drag racing. Went well above 5000 rpm MANY times.

(5) With Pontiac cast pistons, our '68 Bird Stocker went near 6000 rpm, nearly every pass. Won lots of races that year, then that same engine saw DD use for the next 2 years. No piston problems. The only piston that failed was a NAPA brand I'd bought, because GM was temporarily out of .030 over cast pistons. And the NAPA pistons lasted nearly half the season, at near 6000, almost every pass.

(6) My 1st 455, I pulled from a running '70 GTO. IIRC, it had around 75k miles on it.
I put in a Crane 041 cam & Rhoads lifters. Estimated 400hp/500 torque. Factory, well used, cast rods & pistons. Ran it 3 seasons, in 3 different cars. Ran 12.40's in a '68 Bird. I realize these times are REAL slow, by today's standards. But, back in the '70's, most of the quickest Pontiac Stockers were still running low 12's & high 11's.

(7) In all my 455 bracket cars, I had a rev limiter, set on 5500 rpm. That cast piston 455 hit the rev limiter MANY times. Made hundreds of passes, over those 3 racing seasons. Still running 12.50's, in a '68 Bird, when I gave it to the guy that was driving the car that year.

(8] Think of the millions of cast piston engines that have run for 100k miles & more, even when run pretty hard, during their life.

(9) So, in my mind, the ONLY question is: Are any of today's aftermarket pistons as strong as the cast pistons Pontiac used in their engines, back in the '70's ?

(10) We've all read of LOTS of guys running the 8-eyebrow cast pistons. For some, that's just what came in the engine, when they bought it. For others, that's just what their engine builder told them was available, for a low price.

We all know of the bad features of those 8-eyebrow, cast, rebuilder pistons. And, although MANY have reported having no problems with 'em, I'm merely trying to come up with an alternative cast piston, which doesn't have all the negative features of those pistons, but is chepaer than the SP forged pistons. As I've said many times, not everybody needs 400 hp, for their mild DD Pontiac. Therefore, not everybody needs forged pistons, IMO. Are forged pistons better ? YES ! Do they cost more ? Yes.

(11) Also, there are lots of guys who wanna run the small chamber heads, but wanna run low octane pump gas. The 455 Olds pistons have a small dish, which should help with this.

SO, my question, and the purpose of this thread, is NOT to ask whether ya'll think forged pistons are better than cast(we all know that), but to ask specifically about the possibility of using some cast 455 Olds pistons, rather than the 8-eyebrow pistons, in a MILD(Very, Very mild by this forums standards) street 400 engine.

Here are the possible advantages I can think of:

(1) Eliminates all the sharp edges of the 8-eyebrow pistons.

(2) Has a 1.720 pin height, as compared to a 1.700 pin height. That reduces the amount of deck machining needed, by .020, in order to achieve the same deck height.

(3) I assume the small dish, along with .020 more pin height, will reduce CR, while, at the same time, having a better quench distance.

So, aside from being cast, rather than forged, what disadvantages do you guys see ?

Any reasons why these won't work ? I mean, is there some reason why these pistons simply will not physically fit & function in a Pontiac 400 engine ?

If these WILL work, are there any advantages to using the 8-eyebrow pistons, instead ?

Sorry if my communication skills did not correctly present this thread. It's not the 1st time in life I've had this problem. Maybe this post will clear up what info I'm lookin for.

[Johnny406]

I cannot answer your question but perhaps Ken Keefer or Paul Spotts would know. My only advice for this low$$ engine is to post a WTB add for a used set of TRW/Speed Pro pistons and be a little patient.

[PAUL K]

In regards to question #9 ;

The OEM cast pistons are a chit ton stronger and better quality compared to aftermarket cast pistons.

[ponyakr]

Maybe this will help.

For all you guys here who now have, or have had, Pontiac engines, of any size, which have aftermarket cast pistons:

(1) Have you experienced any cast piston failures ? ( This does NOT include the "hypercast" pistons.)

(2) If so, how was the engine run & what was the exact nature of your piston failure ? Do you know the CAUSE of that failure ?

(3) If you've run cast pistons and have NOT experienced any failures, what was the hardest use your pistons endured ?

(4) Who here has successfully run aftermarket cast pistons in a drag only engine, or a street/strip engine, that made lots of track passes ?

(5) For you guys ^, what engine size, what piston brand, max rpm, aprox number of passes ?

Back in '75, an engine builder told me that there was only one brand of cast pistons he knew of that were as strong as Pontiac pistons. The brand was Sterling. I looked 'em up a few years back. Seemed to me, that, at the time, I found that Sealed Power had bought out Sterling. So, I don't know if Sealed Power cast pistons are as strong as Sterling pistons were, or not. Just Googled Sterling pistons. It seems that the Sterling name is still used in some Sealed Power & Federal-Mogul piston ads.

https://www.amazon.com/Sterling-273A...sr=1-1-catcorr

Mr. P-body even called the Speed Pro sbc hypercast pistons, Sterling. "...We use the Speed Pro (Sterling) versions in those same lower-level circle track engines today..."

This box has the Federal Mogul, Sterling, & TRW names printed on it. Don't know what year FM dropped the Sterling name. ? I bought a lot of TRW stuff, but never bought any Sterling pistons.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-351W-5...IAAOSwoA5dVWXe

Also don't know if Silv-o-Lite pistons are as good as cast Sealed Power, or not. Maybe there are some here who have worked in a shop where they did engine builds for regular street driven, non-performance engines, who might have more info on cast piston quality, between brands.

[PAUL K]

Not hard to crack an aftermarket cast piston. A lot easier than an OEM. See post #8.

[ponyakr]

One of the 455 Olds sets I linked are Zollner brand. Googled those. Seems they were a supplier for GM, for a few years. Don't know if that means they are better than Sealed Power, or not. ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Set-Zolln...ry!71251!US!-1

http://historycenterfw.blogspot.com/...s-have-in.html

https://www.adandp.media/articles/re...had-it-so-good

"...A piston factory once owned by one of the founders of the National Basketball Association is closing down this year because of the economic downturn.

It will mean the end of the Fort Wayne plant that as Zollner Piston once employed more than 1,200 people but now has just 38 production workers.

The closure is the "direct effect of what's happening in the auto industry," said Mike Windberg, a spokesman for Marinette, Wis.-based Karl Schmidt Unisia Inc.

A subsidiary of the German-based Kolbenschmidt Pierburg Group, Unisia bought the former Zollner plant in 1999.

That company was named for Fred Zollner, who helped form the NBA and whose Pistons team played in Fort Wayne from 1949 until moving to Detroit in 1957.

Windberg said the plant's customer base had shrunk to only General Motors Corp. and its workers were making pistons and piston rings mainly for large-displacement engines. He said production in Fort Wayne will be shifted to the company's plants in Marinette, Wis., and Mexico..."

https://www.theautochannel.com/news/...27/017436.html

[Mike Davis]

Against my better judgement I put an engine together for a guy who had a 400 in a 76 TA. He bought a 'rebuild kit' online. I bored the block .030 and align honed it. The pistons were a no name in the kit. I want to say they were First Seal or something like that. With 62 heads and a 068 Cam.
Within 5 months It cracked the skirts on 2 pistons and collapsed the rings lands on 2 others. He called the company he got the kit from and they told him no warranty since the compression was over 9.5:1.
I measured the skirts vs the factory pistons. They were .080 thinner.

If the $100 is keeping someone from building a decent engine, they need to be riding a mule.

[PunchT37]

Originally Posted by Mike Davis

If the $100 is keeping someone from building a decent engine, they need to be riding a mule.

LOL

[Bermuda Blue]

Back in the early 80s (when I had little disposable income) I built a 400 with cheap Badger pistons. I believe these are the dreaded 8 eyebrow pistons. Don't recall cam specs but it was probably a high lift version of the 744. Stock intake, 750 Holley, Headers, 62 heads (compression in the 9:1 range) with decent valve job and valve springs, rhoads lifters, 3.55 limit slip rear and M20.

I beat that motor like a bad dog and it took the beating over and over. It was tuned well and i made sure it had no detonation and any load level. Took it to the strip a few times and it ran in the low 13s/high 12s with slicks. Timing was advanced a little bit, open headers and high octane fuel was used at the track. Don't recall the shift point but it was about 5500 if i had to guess. That motor surprised a lot of people including myself considering how basic it was. Motor was still going strong after approx. 40K miles - when i took the car off the road.

I don't see any problem with cast pistons in the application you describe as long as the motor is tuned well and detention is avoided at all costs. install an O2 sensor to get the A/F ratio correct and back off the timing as necessary.

[Steve C.]

"If the $100 is keeping someone from building a decent engine, they need to be riding a mule."

Related.....


Years ago at a PRI show in the AllPontiac sales booth the subject came up about how Pontiac enthusiasts can be tight with their money. A comment was made suggesting some are so tight, they squeak when they walk. With a smile on his face Bob said here I'll show you.........he got up and went to a engine stand with a IA2 block on it. As he pushed the engine stand the wheels went squeeeeeeeeak !




.

[Scarebird]

I was looking at this as an option for a friend who is in the same boat - main issue is if the bore will clean up at 60 over vs 65.

The dish in the Olds piston is the killer for me if friend is using 96 heads.

[ponyakr]

For those who insist on forged pistons, but want a dish. The SP L2323F030 pistons are only $308 shipped, this weekend, with no tax.

http://www.northernautoparts.com/part/fg-l2323f30

The $25 off deal would almost pay the tax, from Summit. They'd probably match the total shipped price.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...3f30/overview/

They have an 18cc dish. The pin height is 1.735. If the tops stick out of the hole too far, it should be MUCH easier to shave some off, than to pay to have a dish cut into an L2262F. Should eliminate any need to cut extra material off the deck, in order to achieve zero deck height. That savings should(might) offset the cost of cutting a little off the piston tops, if necessary.

Should be able to get zero deck, or slightly out of the hole, while reducing CR, & quench distance.

Or, you could go with the SP flat tops, pay to have the block decked, and pay to have a dish cut.

Least that's how it looks to me. But, the Olds pistons may not work, at all. I haven't read that anybody has ever tried one to SEE if it would work.

In case a little would have to come off the top, for you machine shop guys, aprox what would that cost, for all 8 pistons ? Assuming much less than machining a dish.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

I haven't read that anybody has ever tried one to SEE if it would work.

This member posted about running the olds pistons.

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...t=Olds+pistons

Clay

[slowbird]

We busted a couple oem cast pistons in a 350. They did have 100k miles on them before they broke.

[70 bird]

Buy the cheap 8 relief pistons and mill the heads