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Old 02-29-2020, 11:31 PM
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Default Pontiac Tri-Power Carburetor Information

Some background information:

I worked for the Ford Motor Company, for 39 years, at their Research & Engineering Center in Dearborn Michigan.

Across the street, from the R&E Center is the HENRY FORD MUSEUM of AMERICAN INNOVATION. Inside the Museum is a 1965 Pontiac GTO with a Tri-Power Engine and the hood is open for all to see the special Tri-Power Engine.
A sign above the car says the car represents "POWER".

https://www.thehenryford.org/visit/henry-ford-museum/

I used to eat my lunch inside the Museum occasionally and sat close to the 1965 GTO.
I did not really pay much attention to the car as it was a 1965 GTO and I owned a 1964 GTO.

One day I actually LOOKED at the 1965 GTO engine and noticed that there were several GLARING ERRORS with the way that the 1965 Tri-Power Intake and Carbs were assembled and mounted on the engine.

I spoke with the Curator (manager) of the 'Automotive Displayed' vehicles and told him there were some things wrong with his 1965 GTO.

So we went to look at the car and I showed him each one of the mistakes on the engine.
He was not happy (as they had paid a bunch of money for this 'restored" 1965 GTO.) I will not mention the amount.

So I offered to correct the mistakes on the Engine Tri-Power System.
I would do this for free but I would try to get donations of parts and information from Pontiac people
and from GM Rochester Products Engineering that might be available.

I will not add any thing else to that story except to say that Rochester Products was one of the companies who offered to help with the restoration of the carburetors as well as carb rebuild/ CALIBRATION information.

Pontiac Engineering no longer exists and neither does the Rochester Products carburetor Division,
they disappeared during the GM bankruptcy.

The other thing is Rochester Products Sent Me The Information vs someone stealing the information from a GM location. This was so I could make sure the Carburetor calibrations were "Spot On" for the Museum car and the
1965 Tri-Power system. My daughter, the Lawyer, says I have no issues with providing this info to Pontiac members.

So who would like to know what the real Tri-Power Carb calibrations looked like?
I provided a lot of the Holley Carb Info on the Holley Carbs in another thread.
I worked for Holley and they gave me the "BOOKS" with the info.
This thread would be a similar format.

Once we got past the "interested or not interested posts" I would start the
passing on of the carb info for the 1964, 1965, and 1966 Tri-Power Carb systems.

Post up your thoughts.

Tom Vaught

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 02-29-2020 at 11:39 PM.
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Old 02-29-2020, 11:45 PM
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Start with 66 info!
If I ever have a tripower on a Pontiac engine it will be a 66 setup, mostly because of it highest TP cfm, and being able to use on 65 and newer heads...

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Old 02-29-2020, 11:52 PM
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One Vote "YES" and a very good suggestion.

Get enough Votes "YES" and B-Man can make the thread a "STICKY" like the Holley Thread.
Then I will just provide the info (with limited posting by others, primarily requests or suggestions like yours).

Tom V.

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Old 03-01-2020, 08:49 AM
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For sure Yes!

That bankruptcy deal cannabilized a lot of good GM divisions and quite a few good people. Delphi Energy Engine Management Systems is but one example.

Thank you for offering Tom.

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Old 03-01-2020, 10:20 AM
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Would like to see this, Thanks Tom.

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Old 03-01-2020, 10:29 AM
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Friend of mine worked for the largest carb rebuilder in the US for GM & was given very large books with all info on every carb listing every spec & Carburetor calibration so that they could build them proper . These are GM master books 10" thick & list every detail on every carb from 1960- 1978 if you may need any info.

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Old 03-01-2020, 10:38 AM
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Sounds great...would love to see the info on the 65 & 66 Tripower setups.

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Old 03-01-2020, 11:09 AM
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Default tr-power

sounds great Tom,... Im in.. I hope to use mine on a strong street build one day...

Thanks..

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Old 03-01-2020, 11:25 AM
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A request has been made to start with the 1966 Tri-Power information, so here it is,
beginning with the Carburetor Part Numbers. Similar info has been posted in bits and pieces in the past so this is a attempt to consolidate some of the information.

1966 389 engines:

Front Carb: 7024178
Front Carb: 7025178

Center A/T Carb: 7026074
Center M/T Carb: 7026075
Center M/T Carb: 7036175* * is A.I.R. Carb - AIR INJECTION REACTOR Carb (Calif.)

Rear Carb: 7024179
Rear Carb: 7025179

1966 421 engines:

Front Carb: 7024078
Front Carb: 7025078

Center A/T Carb: 7026074
Center M/T Carb: 7026075

Rear Carb: 7024079
Rear Carb: 7025079

1) The part numbers for the Rear End Carbs vs the Front End Carbs is 1 number higher.

2) For 1966, the 1966 Tri-Power Carbs basically used the same castings as the 1964 and 1965 castings
as Rochester Products knew that the Pontiac Tri-Power Carb Systems were being discontinued.

3) The Delco/Rochester Products Engineers sent me a 1967 Bulletin 9C-621 (Date May 1967) that replaced 1963 Bulletin 9C-631 (date Oct 1963).

A "handwritten note" note says: "Original Pages from old AC/Delco Carburetor Catalog.
Most Parts are no longer available".
The sheets are labeled:
Delco Rochester Model 2GC Carburetors
There are 3 groups of pages: (1964, 1965, 1966).
Example:

"1966 Pontiac, "V-8"
Triple Two-Barrel Carburetor Installation
389 Cubic Inch Engine

The one I have for the 1966 engine is Bulletin 9C-627
Date May 1967, Replaces 9C-640, April 1966
(For Specifications, see Bulletin 9 PO-1.)
(For Adjustments, see Bulletin 9 PO-3.)

The Delco Information specifically does give you carb rebuild information:

Example (for 1966 carbs)

Front Auto:
Carb Number: 7024178
Replacement PKG No: 22-655A
Overhaul Kit: 7031480
OK Kit: VTR-617
Gasket Set: 40-338
Altitude Kit: 7033029

The information also gives you a Part Number for Every part listed in the kits:
Air Horn Parts, Choke Parts, Float Bowl Parts, Throttle Body Parts, Vacuum Control Parts, and Linkage Parts.

Example: The Link for the long rod that connects the front carb to the rear carb is part Number 7015362. The Rear Clip is number 7011249, and the Front Clip is 554285.
The Water Controlled Vacuum Valve is called a "Thermo Vacuum Lockout Valve" and is part number 7026096.

As Dick B posted, there are literally hundreds of parts and part numbers for the different Tri-Power Systems for just the 1964 to 1966 systems.

Tom Vaught

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 03-01-2020 at 11:37 AM.
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Old 03-01-2020, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
Friend of mine worked for the largest carb rebuilder in the US for GM & was given very large books with all info on every carb listing every spec & Carburetor calibration so that they could build them proper . These are GM master books 10" thick & list every detail on every carb from 1960- 1978 if you may need any info.
Do not know what I would ever do with info from 1960 to 1978 on all carbs GM offered. The Tri-Power Systems info will be hard enough to pass on if I leave the Part Number Stuff to builders like Dick B. The Rochester people, as mentioned above, said many of the parts have been discontinued as early as the mid 1970s. I hope to focus on CALIBRATION information.

Tom V.

Now if someone like Dick B or Mike W says, IF I provide the "Carb Calibration" info, it will harm their businesses then I will have to think again about posting up the information.

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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 03-01-2020 at 11:43 AM.
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Old 03-01-2020, 12:06 PM
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I would love to see this info So YES

I do not think for a minute that it will hurt Dick or Mike's business. Both gentlemen have already offered up better info for guys engine specs.

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Old 03-01-2020, 01:19 PM
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Tom - the tripower specifications have been available in the master books as mentioned by chrisp for years. The books were available by subscription to mechanics attending GM schools.

While I cannot speak for either Dick or Mike, I can state publishing these will certainly not harm my business.

An ongoing issue on these (on any other car parts) are supersessions. Rochester would replace a part with a different part, and the new part would show up in the revised specification page. There was a thread on throttle body gaskets with this issue on these forums a few years ago.

I believe you are aware that I posted carb id numbers and casting numbers for the tripower on my website years ago. You are welcome to that information.

For me, the biggest challenge when I was still doing carbs on the tripowers were the various special fittings. We reproduced several of those with more common usage, and even had tooling produced so I could machine inverted flare fittings for those with insufficient usage for mass reproduction.

If your information can provide usage, and especially pictures, of the special fittings, it would be a boon to anyone playing with these.

Jon.

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Old 03-01-2020, 03:34 PM
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Hello Jon, question for you.
Did the Master books give the exact orifice dimensions for each orifice in the Tri-Power carbs. Holley had calibration Sheets that specified exact calibration orifice numbers for the way the carbs were built. This was for Plant and Engineering use only.

Are we talking about the same information? I have not seen the information you describe in the Master Books for the Tri-Power Stuff. Some say that BG was using the calibration sheets from Holley to build his old stuff. No knowledge of that being true, not my business. But the word was Holley waited until he had built a lot of carbs and then went after the company for each infringement of Holleys info in $$$$.00

Tom V.

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Old 03-01-2020, 04:01 PM
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From where I am, it would be really nice to have the orifice sizes for the simple fact that over the years these things have been parts swapped, modified, and well meaning “tuners” drilling on stuff.

Would be really nice to be able to quantify what you’re looking at with a specific factory reference to go by to see just where you are with what you have to work with.

Just to be able to return the thing back to original would be wonderful. Performance tuning from that point would be a whole seperate idea, that would take a good portion of a lifetime to teach in and of itself.

An example would be a sizeable box of carbs I “inherited” from a closed tube up shop called “carburetor clinic “ which was a chain in memphis back in the 80’s... they were all disassembled and no telling what was where originally or what had been modified without a good reference.

So they still set in the box waiting some attention.

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Old 03-01-2020, 04:03 PM
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Tom - not after 1959. Up to 1959, there were additional sheets included that gave this information. And some of the orifice information is contained in the 6B section of the Pontiac shop manuals.

I have seen some of the Rochester plant sheets as you describe on some of the Q-Jets, but not on the 2-G series carbs.

Same is true for other carburetor manufacturers.

Carter probably offered the most complete information to the general public, followed by Stromberg. Autolite probably offered the least information, followed by Rochester (after 1959). Holley and Zenith are in the middle.

You will remember I sent you copies of the Holley 1957 2x4 and supercharged plant sheets, which are the only Holley sheets I have been able to acquire.

Of course, I have all of the Stromberg sheets.

Publishing the plant sheets is a horse of a different color than publishing the MPL sheets. (See PM).

Jon.

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If you truly believe that "one size fits all" try walking a mile in your spouse's shoes!

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Current caretaker of the remains of Stromberg Caburetor, and custodian of the existing Carter and Kingston carburetor drawings.
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Old 03-01-2020, 04:45 PM
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I received the "Plant Sheets" from Rochester Products Division on March 5, 1985 in a Rochester Products Division Envelope. There is no doubt in my mind that these are Plant Build Sheets for the Tri-Power Carbs.

Rochester Products Division was sold to Delphi in 1995. That was 25 years ago. A SEPARATE COMPANY, located on the Rochester Products Division property was created to build Fuel Injection Components.

That deal is similar to Borg Warner buying the OEM side of the Holley Carburetor Company that made Air Pumps, EGR Valves, Throttle Bodies, etc.

Holley Performance has/had no control of the Borg Warner owned Holley OEM Production side of the business either.

So I personally believe that I have two legal rights to post the information.
1) Rochester Products Division "Gave Me The Information" (I have that in writing)

and

2) Rochester Products Division has disappeared as far as making any OEM Carburetor Parts just like Autolite disappeared on the Ford Side of the carburetor business.

BUT GM may still own the Copy Right Information still. So I cannot post copies/prints of the sheets but do believe that I might be able to post information on Carburetor "C-1 and C-2" first and then maybe info on Carburetor "A-1 and A-2" and B-1 and B-2".

Tom Vaught

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Old 03-01-2020, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisp View Post
Friend of mine worked for the largest carb rebuilder in the US for GM & was given very large books with all info on every carb listing every spec & Carburetor calibration so that they could build them proper . These are GM master books 10" thick & list every detail on every carb from 1960- 1978 if you may need any info.
Are we talking about the Delco carb manual; a gigantic "ring binder" with sections for all the various GM carbs? I can't tell, the manuals I have were updated into the 1980s, and go back before 1960.

Far as I know, there was a three-binder set from Delco. If there were other binders covering different subjects, I don't know about them.
1. The Delco "1.2" manual for electrical systems--generators, alternators, batteries, relays, regulators, etc. This was a required text-book for the Auto-Electrical section of my trade school.
2. The Delco "9" Carburetion manual
3. The Delco Brake manual






All the item numbers pictured were referenced to part numbers on the bottom half of the page, and on the back side of the page, for all three carbs. There's a page for every carb, every year, every GM division, plus some non-GM applications, plus Throttle Body Injection. There's sections on the various designs of carbs--Dual Jet, Quadrajet, 2G, etc.

At some point--about 1988, I think--the yearly updates (and perhaps the manuals themselves) were discontinued. Nobody at my local Delco outlet knows anything about these manuals.

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Old 03-01-2020, 04:48 PM
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At one time I had the folder from when the museum acquired that car.

Like so many things now - I'm not sure what I did with it.

K

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Old 03-01-2020, 04:56 PM
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No Schurkey, that is a Parts Book not a Calibration Sheet.

Tom V.

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Old 03-01-2020, 05:40 PM
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In todays world on the internet, copyrights almost seem anachronistic, but corporate attorneys have no sense of humor, and forgiveness is not in their DNA.

For those that may be unaware, copyrights extend for 75 years, and may be renewed by the copyright holder.

Jon.

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"Good carburetion is fuelish hot air".

"The most expensive carburetor is the wrong one given to you by your neighbor".

If you truly believe that "one size fits all" try walking a mile in your spouse's shoes!

Owner of The Carburetor Shop, LLC (of Missouri).

Current caretaker of the remains of Stromberg Caburetor, and custodian of the existing Carter and Kingston carburetor drawings.
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