[455HOGT37]

Ok, how's this for weird - the early speculation on the B-17 brought down by misfueling with Jet A fuel was discussed here. It's not entirely off the table until the NTSB rules, but I suggested it's not that uncommon.

Last weekend a piston twin was brought down by misfueling with Jet A.

https://www.tampabay.com/news/hillsb...eon-ntsb-says/

The weird part is the pilot was part of a deal I had going with the sale of one of my airplanes. I never met him personally, but I had the deal on my L39 sealed. Didn't hear from anyone for a few days and then found our why - one of the buyers was this guy.

A small, sometimes tragic world.

[GT182]

NTSB or not, there is no doubt in my mind... the crew knew what the difference was and would see it on the fuel trucks. Mac was usually one of the guys up on the wing doing the refueling. That I can attest too as I was/am a Tour Coordinator here and was right there with them all the time they were here at KILG/New Castle County Airport.

Tell me what color 100 LL is, and the color of AVJetA. Without looking it up online.

Besides that, the lady spokeswoman for the NTSB had said they'd already tested the fuel the day after the crash from the remaining wing, and it was 100LL.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by GT182

NTSB or not, there is no doubt in my mind... the crew knew what the difference was and would see it on the fuel trucks. Mac was usually one of the guys up on the wing doing the refueling. That I can attest too as I was/am a Tour Coordinator here and was right there with them all the time they were here at KILG/New Castle County Airport.

Tell me what color 100 LL is, and the color of AVJetA. Without looking it up online.

Besides that, the lady spokeswoman for the NTSB had said they'd already tested the fuel the day after the crash from the remaining wing, and it was 100LL.

100LL is blue, Jet-A is straw colored. The placards on Avgas 100LL refueling trucks are blue, on Jet-A refueling trucks they are black. Additionally, all the major aircraft insurance companies paid for FBOs and fuel farms to install wider than standard fuel nozzles on Jet-A refueling trucks and pumps over thirty years ago when there was a rash of cross fueling incidents. All placards and decals that said “turbo” had to be removed from aircraft per an AD(airworthiness directive). In the Kokomo crash, training is the main factor. There are a few 602 Aerostars that have been converted to run Rolls Royce/Allison 250-B18 turboshaft engines, but if you cannot tell the difference between a “Piston pounder” and a “suck and blow” you have ZERO business on a flight line. In my 20+ years in general and corporate aviation I have NEVER witnessed a cross fueling incident where a well trained line crew was in charge.

[GT182]

You passed the test HH62.

Do you remember 80 octane aircraft fuel? It's color was... ? I pumped a lot of AV JetA, 80 and 100(not 100LL) back in the late 60s and early 70s. Yes. I'm and old aviation SOB. LOL

[455HOGT37]

The NTSB press release from 2 weeks ago was not the final report - keep that in mind.

And yes, as a pilot, A&P and aeronautical engineer, I have a hard time getting my head around the thought of pumping Jet A into a piston aircraft, but even with nozzle restrictors, it happens.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by GT182

You passed the test HH62.

Do you remember 80 octane aircraft fuel? It's color was... ? I pumped a lot of AV JetA, 80 and 100(not 100LL) back in the late 60s and early 70s. Yes. I'm and old aviation SOB. LOL

80/87 was red and smelled like lighter fluid. O-200s and O-320s loved it. We had to find a vendor for it (Avfuels) in the mid 1980s due to all the lead fouling problems we were having using 100LL in lower performance engines that didn’t operate in a heat range high enough to keep TEL from accumulating on exhaust valve seats, valve faces and valve stems and guides. A buddy of mine would run a tank full through the Jet Ranger he flew just before it was due for an HSI (hot section inspection).

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

The NTSB press release from 2 weeks ago was not the final report - keep that in mind.

And yes, as a pilot, A&P and aeronautical engineer, I have a hard time getting my head around the thought of pumping Jet A into a piston aircraft, but even with nozzle restrictors, it happens.

NOT on my flight line it didn’t. I drilled it into the linemen’s heads the job was dangerous enough: stupid mistakes made it more dangerous. If you screw up, TELL ME IMMEDIATELY! Yes, it’s a PITA to drain and flush a fuel system, but it’s better than having to explain to the FAA and the NTSB WHY you killed people....

[455HOGT37]

Well, it's unfortunate that you (or me) were not on the line at Kokomo last Saturday. It appears the line guys worked really hard to overcome the nozzle restrictors and pump a bunch of kerosene into a gasoline burner.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

Well, it's unfortunate that you (or me) were not on the line at Kokomo last Saturday. It appears the line guys worked really hard to overcome the nozzle restrictors and pump a bunch of kerosene into a gasoline burner.

Poorly trained linemen speak volumes about the quality of service at an FBO. Many FBOs insist on hiring kids as young as 16 and turn them loose with multi million dollar aircraft. It’s a recipe for disaster.....

[GT182]

I sure hope they were fired for doing that. When I was a lineman I was taught... actually it was drilled into my head... that if I didn't know I was to ask what to do and get an answer from those that knew the answer to my question. Always ask the pilot what he wanted pumped into the tanks, and make sure you had the product he wanted. If not you went and got it... NO substitutions allowed.

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by GT182

I sure hope they were fired for doing that. When I was a lineman I was taught... actually it was drilled into my head... that if I didn't know I was to ask what to do and get an answer from those that knew the answer to my question. Always ask the pilot what he wanted pumped into the tanks, and make sure you had the product he wanted. If not you went and got it... NO substitutions allowed.

Absolutely, Gary. I had one lineman who was intellectually challenged to say the least. He was refueling a Lear 25D one morning when I asked him WHEN was he going to change tanks and fuel the other side. The left tip tank was about 18 inches off the ground while I couldn’t even see the fuel cap on the right tank. Needless to say I sent him packing.

[Bob Dillon]

Originally Posted by 455HOGT37

Well, it's unfortunate that you (or me) were not on the line at Kokomo last Saturday. It appears the line guys worked really hard to overcome the nozzle restrictors and pump a bunch of kerosene into a gasoline burner..

Have we now determined that the aircraft was mis-fueled? I seem to have missed

that.

[hurryinhoosier62]

No confirmation, Mr. D. Initially, the NTSB tested the remaining fuel in the right wing tanks and found it to be constant with 100LL Avgas. Only lab testing will be able to establish if 9-0-9 was the victim of a cross fueling incident.

[455HOGT37]

Bob- the B-17 in the OP seems to have the proper avgas in the tanks, though nothing is entirely off the table until the final report. The recent crash of another airplane in post #48 DOES indicate misfueling. I only brought up the second crash to illustrate the frequency of this highly preventable occurrence and also my personal connection to it.

[george kujanski]

Read this morning the NTSB ruled out the misfuel possibility. I assume the report is accurate.

george

[hurryinhoosier62]

Originally Posted by george kujanski

Read this morning the NTSB ruled out the misfuel possibility. I assume the report is accurate.

george

George, if the fuel passed specific gravity testing there was no cross fueling or misfueling incident. Since Jet A weighs more than 100LL(6 lbs per gallon 6.7 lbs per gallon), the specific gravity would be distorted. When misfuels were happening with great regularity in the late 1980's I attended the Chevron aircraft fuel "school". It was a two day seminar put on free of charge by Chevron(our supplier). The lab guys got a little deep in the woods, but what you learned was how little Jet-A it took to make 100LL unstable and terribly dangerous. If I remember correctly, five gallons of Jet-A into 100 gallons of 100LL lowered the octane rating by 10-15 points. That is enough to trigger severe detontation in a turbocharged aircraft engine.

[hurryinhoosier62]

NTSB preliminary report is out. Fuel consistent with 100LL.. From the pilot’s conversations with ATC, it sounds like severe mag problems or a mag failure coupled with too little altitude while flying in the pattern. ATC directed 9-0-9 in a right hand pattern, which kept the aircraft turning into the bad #4 engine.

[Bob Dillon]

Originally Posted by hurryinhoosier62

NTSB preliminary report is out. Fuel consistent with 100LL.. From the pilot’s conversations with ATC, it sounds like severe mag problems or a mag failure coupled with too little altitude while flying in the pattern. ATC directed 9-0-9 in a right hand pattern, which kept the aircraft turning into the bad #4 engine.

Saw that report on Youtube. They also said that the ground crew was working on both #4 mags before takeoff as they appeared wet, plus the humidity was 78%.


Hard to believe that with 3 turning they couldn't gin altitude with what was a very light load for a B-17.

[robertf]

So sorry to hear about the loss of life and this wonderful machine. Nine O Nine was a regular visitor at Burbank Airport in years past.

[GT182]

This isn't fact, but I heard this morning that #3 had also quit on them. If so that could be what put them into the glycol tanks. Yes a 17 can fly on 2 engines, but not with two on the same side running. Two on the same side... in this case only 1 and 2 running would push them to the right. I don't think the rudder could keep them heading straight, and pulling power to do that would put them into the ground sooner. Possibly it's the reason they clipped the approach lights before getting to the runway. Just my speculation, but if true it's entirely possible.