[75ga]

I try to use AC Delco product's as often as possible on my GM car's. During the winter month's I have the local Pontiac dealer service the Sunfire. The Lincoln get's Ford part's from the local Ford dealer, I like thing's to be factory correct if possible.

[dblsprt68]

I would like to know why you think this? Have you seen some kind of test that prove this? I've always used fram filters on all my cars, so I'm very curious . Thanks, David

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

Tone,

I would avoid Fram filters. They are the worst on the market. Next time, use either an AC or WIX.

[77 Canamman]

http://minimopar.knizefamily.net/oilfilterstudy.html

An excerpt:

"Filters To Avoid
The following list of filters have known problems. You will see well-known names here and will probably be disappointed. This is because many of these brands have stopped making their own filters and buy from a common manufacturer.

Fram Extra Guard
Years ago Fram was a quality filter manufacturer. Now their standard filter (the radioactive-orange cans) is one of the worst out there. It features cardboard end caps for the filter element that are glued in place. The rubber anti-drainback valve seals against the cardboard and frequently leaks, causing dirty oil to drain back into the pan. The bypass valves are plastic and are sometimes not molded correctly, which allows them to leak all the time. The stamped-metal threaded end is weakly constructed and it has smaller and fewer oil inlet holes, which may restrict flow. I had one of these filters fail in my previous car. The filter element collapsed and bits of filter and glue were circulating through my system. The oil passage to the head became blocked and the head got so hot from oil starvation that it actually melted the vacuum lines connected to it as well as the wires near it.

Fram Double Guard
Another bad filter idea brought to you by your friends at Fram. The filter itself is a slightly improved design over the Fram Extra Guard, but still uses the same filter element. It has a silicone anti-drainback valve, a quality pressure relief valve, and enough inlet holes for good flow. The big problem is that they are trying to cash in on the Slick 50 craze. They impregnate the filter element with bits of Teflon like that found in Slick 50. As with Slick 50, Teflon is a solid and does not belong in an engine. It cannot get into the parts of the engine that oil can and therefore does nothing. Also, as the filter gets dirty, it ends up filtering the Teflon right out. Dupont (the manufacturer of Teflon) does not recommend Teflon for use in internal combustion engines. Please do not waste your money on this filter."

A e-mail from a former Allied-Signal engineer:

"Russell,
I obtained great satisfaction from reading your oil filter survey.

I worked for two years as the oil-filter production line engineer in
an Allied-Signal FRAM facility and I can confirm every bad thing you
have said about FRAM automotive filters. That's from the horse's
mouth, as it were.

I'm also a quality engineer and can confirm that FRAM applies no
quality control whatsoever to any of the characteristics for which we
buy oil filters. I frequently saw filter designs which were barely
capable of meeting J806. Many of FRAM's designs will block and go to
bypass after trying to filter very little contamination. There were
often leakage paths at the paper end discs when these were not
properly centered on the elements. Some designs had the pleats so
tightly packed against the center tube that they would block off in no
time. I had discovered that the FRAM HP1 that I had been buying for
about $20 Cdn was EXACTLY the same as a PH8 inside - the only
difference being a heavier can - no advantages in flow capacity. The
paper filtration media was of apparently poor quality and the process
of curing the paper resin was very inconsistent - elements would range
from visibly burnt to white. FRAM's marketers admitted that there was
just about no way the public could ever prove that an oil filter
contributed, or did not prevent, engine damage. The only thing FRAM
tested for was can burst strength. Another problem that they have from
time to time is in threading the filter base - often there are strands
of metal left behind on a poorly formed thread.

I have not used a FRAM filter since I started working there. Their
claims are entirely and completely marketing bull****.

If people really want to protect their engines, a good air filter is
vital (which excludes FRAM from that list as well) and a combination
of one depth and one full-flow hydraulic filter, together in parallel,
will do the job of filtration to perfection.

Thanks for doing a great job in trying to get the truth out! You can
quote me anytime."

[name omitted to protect submitter]

More:

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/fram-eg5.htm

http://www.oilfilterstudy.com/fram-tg5.htm

If you Google Fram oil filter failures, there will be a bunch of info regarding others that have tested or had a engine failure due to those orange POS.

Personally, I used Fram filters until about 7 years ago due to the 400 in my LeMans Enforcer would always clatter upon startup. When I switched to an AC, the issue vanished.

[bastard]

They sell them at Wal Mart, that should be enough warning right there.

[squirejohn]

Tone,

welcome to the board.
I want to thank you for saving the car! I was watching this one on e-bay.
Not sure if you have decided on headers, but I would suggest the RA 3 exhaust manifolds. They will drop right in. Can get at most Pontiac aftermaket sellers. Im sure PY offers them
Many headers are a issue for this car, not the easiest fit. Keep us updated. and ENJOY.

[Tone]

Originally Posted by squirejohn

Tone,

welcome to the board.
I want to thank you for saving the car! I was watching this one on e-bay.
Not sure if you have decided on headers, but I would suggest the RA 3 exhaust manifolds. They will drop right in. Can get at most Pontiac aftermaket sellers. Im sure PY offers them
Many headers are a issue for this car, not the easiest fit. Keep us updated. and ENJOY.

I might end up doing that Squire, thanks for the info....I noticed the big lack of room in there while putting that *GASP* 'Fram' oil filter on. AND I might have to take it to a garage for the install anyway, where there is a lift and all the proper tools. What does RA 3 mean?? Just an upgraded version of a stock manifold? I just wanna let the car breathe a little bit, ya know? I don't have the money for big mods, but I wanna do a little something.


Hey Squire, you think I got it for the right price at 1,075??

Thanks, Tone.

[WW3]

I put RA3 repro manifolds on the Can am http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1968-...QQcmdZViewItem at about $300 for the pair and then another $30 or so for good studs and flanges. The pair I used had a 2 bolt flange on one side and a 3 bolt flange on the other. I spent a little bit of time removing casting flash and chamfering the stud holes and then I had to modify the hot air stove to clear the bigger design. After that it was bolt in and go. I used PYPES for the rest of my 2 1/2" system and they supplied me with the correct downpipes and flanges. My biggest complaint is that I had to remove completely, the frame braces that triangulate the lower control arm mount to the center K member part of the frame. A problem I need to address as it seems these cars need those braces if not more of them.

[Tone]

Hmm...looks like the stock headers are staying on. =) I don't have the time or money to deal with bullcrap, so I think I'll get some cherry bombs and turn-downs at WalMart, where I got my Fram oil filter, lol, and strap that to my existing but rusted out Y-pipe to calm the beast down a little.

[Brian Baker]

Tone...don't be half-a$$ed about it. Remove the Y-pipe and bend up a pair of pipes off the exhaust manifolds to run back to the mufflers. Why would you want to run a pair of mufflers off a single Y-pipe anyway?

Fram filters: These stories are all related to their passenger car line of oil filters. Their HP (racing) series of filters are no issue.

[Tone]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Tone...don't be half-a$$ed about it. Remove the Y-pipe and bend up a pair of pipes off the exhaust manifolds to run back to the mufflers. Why would you want to run a pair of mufflers off a single Y-pipe anyway?

Fram filters: These stories are all related to their passenger car line of oil filters. Their HP (racing) series of filters are no issue.

I meant if I left the Y-pipe, that I'd put one muffler on it and a turn-down, to avoid being pulled over, and get the poisonous exhaust fumes coming out behind me, instead of in front of me.

I'm going to make it dual, and if the temp outside can hang around 30-35 degrees, I can drive my MR2 to work no problem, giving me all the time I need to fix the LeMans.

[WW3]

Originally Posted by Tone

I meant if I left the Y-pipe, that I'd put one muffler on it and a turn-down, to avoid being pulled over, and get the poisonous exhaust fumes coming out behind me, instead of in front of me.

I don't understand what you mean here, but in PA it needs to exit either in front of the rear wheel to the outside of the body or all the way out back under the rear bumper or past the body.

It cannot just dump straight down under the floorpan, nor do you want it to.

I understand that money may be tight for you right now but if you can't afford to do it right the first time, how will you be able to afford to do it right the second time?

[Bassman]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Well, it's true. These 73-77 A-bodies aren't everyone's cup of tea, but I happen to like them.

Me too.

[Tone]

Originally Posted by WW3

I don't understand what you mean here, but in PA it needs to exit either in front of the rear wheel to the outside of the body or all the way out back under the rear bumper or past the body.

It cannot just dump straight down under the floorpan, nor do you want it to.

I understand that money may be tight for you right now but if you can't afford to do it right the first time, how will you be able to afford to do it right the second time?

I don't want it to come out near the floorpan, I was talking about like, maybe getting side pipes, or Lake Pipes, if thats what we're calling them. And if I am allowed to have it exit in FRONT of the rear tire, then side pipes shouldn't be a problem.

I think I know where you got confused....I was thinking about making it dual, and because I can't afford to have an exhaust shop bend me a header-back system, I might put new pipes from the manifold, or headers...run it back toward the axle with some mufflers and turn-downs, so it will end right before the axle. That would save money on making the bend over the axle, but if I can get side pipes I might go that route. Who knows....It's open header season 'round here, at least till I get my spark plugs/wires, and dist. cap and rotor.

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by Tone

Hmm...looks like the stock headers are staying on. =) I don't have the time or money to deal with bullcrap, so I think I'll get some cherry bombs and turn-downs at WalMart, where I got my Fram oil filter, lol, and strap that to my existing but rusted out Y-pipe to calm the beast down a little.

My apologies...as I was only being realistic. Glad to see you found a store that has parts for your car. Was I discourteous or condecending when you asked my advise or was I merely up front and honest about your expected return? Did I not advise you as to the best way to pursue this project if you so desired with what heads, etc., to use? ? You...or Can'tAm man...made it sound like I flat-out insulted you and refused to help. I don't see it that way and am now truly sorry that I attempted to help you. That's a half an hour I could have spent helping someone who actually might have appreciated it. Anyway...hope you find someone that will tell you exactly what you want to hear. I do not regret my honesty in telling you that you can easily get buried in one of these cars financially. I had this discussion with Can't Am when he stated that they are worth as much or more than a '67 GTO. I still consider that idea as dilusional. Anyway...best wishes with your new project. Ron

[Ron Landis]

[QUOTE=goatless]What a dipsh!t at Jegs! I love it when clowns tell you a car isn't worth fixing up, that determination is only to be made by the owner of said car. I bet the idiot doesn't even own a muscle car.


...I have a few musclecars....but what do musclecars have to do with a '73 LeMans? You must know something that Pontiac along with myself missed. Besides...if I wasn't sincere about helping the young man, I'd have just sold him all the parts I could talk him into. Instead, I merely informed him of the drawbacks in parts availability, lack of performance potential and overall resale value of one of these cars. What he builds is absolutely none of my business, but I would have given my son the same advise. Personally, I'd be grateful to anyone lending me any insight as to what I may be setting myself up for, but I guess some of us must learn the hard way. Hope you are all there for the kid when he's trying to get his money back from his investment, as I understood him to say that he aspired to get something better down the road. Well...if nothing else, this restoration should build charachter. Best of luck...really! Ron

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by jegstek

My apologies...as I was only being realistic. Glad to see you found a store that has parts for your car. Was I discourteous or condecending when you asked my advise or was I merely up front and honest about your expected return? Did I not advise you as to the best way to pursue this project if you so desired with what heads, etc., to use? ? You...or Can'tAm man...made it sound like I flat-out insulted you and refused to help. I don't see it that way and am now truly sorry that I attempted to help you. That's a half an hour I could have spent helping someone who actually might have appreciated it. Anyway...hope you find someone that will tell you exactly what you want to hear. I do not regret my honesty in telling you that you can easily get buried in one of these cars financially. I had this discussion with Can't Am when he stated that they are worth as much or more than a '67 GTO. I still consider that idea as dilusional. Anyway...best wishes with your new project. Ron

Ahhhh, poor Mr. Landis.. do you need a Kleenex? Why don't you use that extra Can't Am literature you have, or did you already use it to wipe your ass?..

Show me the post where I said that a '67 GTO was worth the same as a Can Am? That's an easy one, since I didn't.

To me they are worth far more than those turds you recommend..


I will make sure I won't take you to task anymore. You obviously can't handle it.

Oh, by the way, how much does a Can Am weigh again?Maybe this time, you will be within 1000 pounds of the correct answer..

Next...

[Ron Landis]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

Ahhhh, poor Mr. Landis.. do you need a Kleenex? Why don't you use that extra Can't Am literature you have, or did you already use it to wipe your ass?..

Show me the post where I said that a '67 GTO was worth the same as a Can Am? That's an easy one, since I didn't.

To me they are worth far more than those turds you recommend..


I will make sure I won't take you to task anymore. You obviously can't handle it.

Oh, by the way, how much does a Can Am weigh again?Maybe this time, you will be within 1000 pounds of the correct answer..

Next...

Can Ams..if not too far gone...DO weigh within a 1000# of 4000#. Right or wrong? You DID say you'd walk away from an original '67 GTO for $4000, I believe, and advised a fellow PY'er to do likewise. You Did insinuate that Can Ams were highly desireable and enjoyed collector car status equal to GTO's, when I pointed out that one of the nicest examples known to exist couldn't even bring $20k. I will agree with your statement that YOU think the cars are a great investment, but I would still refrain from encouraging anyone from sinking money into any car from this period short of some SD or performance model and expect a profit or even a reasonable return of their investment. I'll stick with my '64 GTO Tri-Power four speed, my '69 GTO ragtop, my '69 Judge and my other "turds." I guess I just like the underdogs. Good luck with your icon. Ron

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by jegstek

Can Ams..if not too far gone...DO weigh within a 1000# of 4000#. Right or wrong? You DID say you'd walk away from an original '67 GTO for $4000, I believe, and advised a fellow PY'er to do likewise. You Did insinuate that Can Ams were highly desireable and enjoyed collector car status equal to GTO's, when I pointed out that one of the nicest examples known to exist couldn't even bring $20k. I will agree with your statement that YOU think the cars are a great investment, but I would still refrain from encouraging anyone from sinking money into any car from this period short of some SD or performance model and expect a profit or even a reasonable return of their investment. I'll stick with my '64 GTO Tri-Power four speed, my '69 GTO ragtop, my '69 Judge and my other "turds." I guess I just like the underdogs. Good luck with your icon. Ron

Originally Posted by jegstek

Possibly...depending on the resto, but I guess I've yet to see any two CanAms bring $35...except for the BJ fluke. Cars have very limited acceptance...let alone collectability. Not to get into a debate about that, and yes...I have owned one before, but seriously...it's not even a performance car! It was a lame attempt to get some mileage out of a stripe package by comparing it to a Judge. I know 2bbl GTO's are not desireable either, but a restored '67 should have no problem getting out of it what you have in it...within reason. Please restrict debate to documentation on pricing, not opinion or speculation. Any CanAms trading hands recently? Only ones I see for sale are "survivors", well...sort of. Again, I love all cars and CanAms are neat...but try trading one for someone's GTO or Firebird. I think that's already been done here and nearly started a civil war, didn't it? Anyway...sorry if I've offended anyone...just calling 'em as I see 'em. Ron BTW...why does everyone say " '77 CamAm"? Was there another year made that I missed? Somewhat redundant...that's all. It's like '63 split-window Corvette. Insults ones's intelligence.

Originally Posted by jegstek

as I said, merely stating an opinion riddled with a few facts. Not to jack the thread and make it about CanAms, but just want to explain my reasoning here. The BJ car I consider a fluke because I have never seen and do not expect to see another Olds powered CanAm bring that kind of moolah. Second, if you "mildly tuned" a 5000#/ 200 hp car into the 14's...you are to be commended. The 8.5 is still relatively weak for a car this size expected to take any abuse. The handling was commendable...again...for a car this size. I did extensive research when I owned mine and concluded that the rarity is due primarily to the fact that the spoiler machine broke and that Pontiac was not pleased about robbing parts from their GP line, which were selling as fast as they could produce them, for a less expensive car. Anyway, like I said, they are neat cars, but seem to be one of those "love 'em or hate 'em" cars. Personally, they catch my eye, and lose thier appeal after that. Rather have one than a GP, but not over a Goat or 'bird. The fact that you don't see many help their appeal, as with any collectible. Mine had red/white interior. That was my favorite part of the car...the inside. View from the dash was nice...what with the GP dash and shaker scoop. We had a pretty wicked 462" in ours, but still not very impressive in the performance department. Just too heavy for that kind of duty. Good luck with yours and if you are interested in owning more, I see them occasionally and hear about them frequently. Recently hear of a "barn full", but haven't seen them. Having no interest, I would gladly forward the info to a true enthusiast. As for the '67 Goat...still say "snatch it!" Ron

Ok..out of that "book" I just posted, you can clearly see where you wrote that a Can Am weighs 5000#, which is over 1000# more than the heavily optioned car I own weighs. It weighs 3975, which is still a pig, but no 5000#.

Also, that "original" '67 GTO was a total roach and you know it. That was a piss poor investment for even $4000. Full of bondo, missing parts, frame rot, etc.. The aforementioned 1967 2 bbl GTO to me was as big of a turd as any.

For a 1977 car, the Can Ams are much more collectable than its peers, and are worth far more than the $6000 it took to buy a good one just 4 years ago. Real nice ones sell just under $20k, and that "fluke" you mention at almost $25k was for the least desirable Can Am combination!

The drivability, braking, styling, etc. are far above those cars you enjoy. The Can Ams lack in straight line performance, where the older cars shine, but I have been able to get my pigs in the high 14's/low 15's at 92 mph without major mods.

In the automotive marketplace, the Can Am is not at the same level as an earlier GTO, NEVER WILL BE, but many of our beloved Pontiacs aren't worth more in the marketplace than many junky Mopars, and Chevy's are, so that isn't always the best comparasion.

Next..

[Tone]

Now now kids.

I'll tell you one thing fellas....and I hope it doesn't burn me later. I have a lot more respect for CanAmMan than I do the entire Jeg's company. He's helped me out quite a bit here with any questions I've had. It's a safe bet to assume that either CanAm or Brian Baker are the first two to reply to my threads. And if not the first two, they're the first two with the answer to my question. So STFU. You're also proving him right by calling him Can'tAm also. =) Keep up the good work.

CanAm already knows where my newest threads are with questions I have that are being answered while you two argue.

[fiedlerh]

I get down to the Mt. Home area near Norfork every other year or so. One of the Baxter county sheriff guys is a Pontiac nut too.