[Pontiacdaver]

Originally Posted by Alvin

NOT COOL!

The reason that these are "rare" is due to the fact that when they were new they were undesirable then as now; aka: no one wanted TO BUY them.
2 door coupes ALWAYS rule.
And your “4-door GTO” is really just a rebadged 72 LeMans isn’t it?

Funny!

I'm with CammerJeff, kinda harsh, don't you think? To each his own, nobody is bashing you for your choice of Pontiacs.

Personally I dig it, certainly won't see another one at a car show. Sad thing is I just missed out on buying it for $3500, now the new owner wanted over 10K but has it on eBay for $6900.00 BIN

-Dave

[Diego]

Originally Posted by Alvin

The reason that these are "rare" is due to the fact that when they were new they were undesirable then as now; aka: no one wanted TO BUY them.

So am I to assume that a ZL1 Camaro was undesirable then and now?

[rexs73gto]

I own a 73 GTO and when I get it out and take it to shows I have lots of people looking and intrested in my car. Of course I've had it forever as I bought mine new. I traded my 69 bird in for mine and have never regretted it. When it's out on the road everyone gives it the thumbs up and want me to pull oveer to look at it. Pontiac may be gone and some slightly less remembeered but not forgotten.

[castongu]

I'd have NO problem with owning, or driving a 4 Door, 4 Speed Grand Am!

[muscle_collector]

did anyone ever figure out exactly how many were made? i have a 73 4 door 4 speed it is all there and was running beautiful when i parked it about 15 years ago. seems like someone told me that they made 4 or so.

[Diego]

My interests don't fall into the Grand Am thing, but I've heard that even the total number of 4-speed cars is suspect. Otherwise, I don't think the numbers exist for 4-doors.

[rexs73gto]

Cas, I didn't say you had any problem with the car what I said is our cars 73-77 are just as popular as the older GOATS and BIRDS and there are begening to become just as exciting for people to see at car shows, wheather it is or insn't a 4spd or 4 door. I love them all, and if I had the money I'd buy it to drive as I like the G/A as a 4 door, but I still prefere a 2 door.

[castongu]

Rex,

My post wasn't directed at you. It was just a general statement expressing my feelings concerning 4-Door, 4Speed Grand Am's.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Diego

So am I to assume that a ZL1 Camaro was undesirable then and now?

Apples and oranges. ZL1's were never intended to be produced in large numbers to start with AND they were very expensive.

Most folks purchasing a 4-door sedan for the family didn't opt for manual transmissions in the 60's or 70's...especially after 1972 when power was down across the board.

[Brian Baker]

I'm not even sure Jim Mattison could break the numbers down with PHS on how many 4-door Grand Am's were built with 4-speeds. Well, maybe.....but it would take someone to go through every document for every 4-door Grand Am ever built to see what transmission was in it...which would take a lot of time.

[rexs73gto]

Brian a ZL1 was a pourpose built car for one thing to start up go fast for 1/4 mile and stop and do it over and over, where as Ponitac was againg ahead of it's time in getting the public to see the future of cars that would become common place in the near future, which it did. But like most who like to compare apples to oranges have a very narrow view of things. Now that idea of the 4 door 4 spd car is common place because the car companys and designer fed the idea the the public a little at a time it became a great look and idea. Me I still thing the idea of high performance 4 doors is still a little hard to swallow as junk wheel drive is oh! I mean front wheel drive, It's what the advertisers have made you belive is the greatest thing since sliced bread. I don't like 4 door cars and have in the past 42 years have only had 2, 4 door cars. I prefere 2 door car , but thats my taste. And like junk wheel drive that was for one reason and one reason only. It was and is cheaper to built and it make the car companys compaptivly about 25% more profit to built a front wheel drive car because of the amount of pieces they don't have to built for rear wheel drive vehicals. There is nothing wrong with the 4 door G/A but just ahead of it's time, but just because it is a rare car and a Pontiac I'd drive it and enjoy it even thought it's a 4 door. Only because it's a Pontiac. I fit was any other make NO. I AM A PONTIAC MAN. Pontiac gone but not ever forgotten.

[Brian Baker]

Diego was being sarcastic about the ZL1 being undesirable because, like 4-door 4-speed cars, it was a low production vehicle. The ZL1 was, and still is desirable...but it was expensive then, and still is now. Even with its expense, it was still never intended to be a mass produced vehicle, it was a "niche" exercise by Chevrolet to go racing. That's why I said his point about the ZL1 was "apples and oranges".

Turned down an opportunity to purchase a 73 4spd 4door GA about 15 years ago for $1300 and I'm still kicking myself in the ass over it.

[fiedlerh]

149,637 Pontiac A-bodies produced in 1974
833 had the M20 option
Probably well over half of the 833 went into Grand Ams.
18% of 1974 Grand Ams were 4 drs.
I'd say less than 100 4dr Grand Ams in 1974.

[einstein]

I don't normally look in this forum, but for some silly reason, I liked the 73 and 74 Grand Ams, but would ONLY want a four-speed car. Seems the GA was what the GTO SHOULD have been in 73-77.

I recall conversations with players in the Camaro world about the 69 1969 ZL-1 Camaros. There were 50 ordered by one dealer (I think Gibbs), who had NO IDEA of the cost. I think the engine option alone had a list price of about $4,200 (probably less, memory failing) on top of a $2,600-2,800 car. Gibbs got the billing after about 20 cars were delivered and freaked out, then asked Chevrolet to redistribute the remaining 30 cars in the order. There were 19 other cars ordered for the 69 car total.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Apples and oranges. ZL1's were never intended to be produced in large numbers to start with AND they were very expensive.

Brian, it's still a relevant comparison. Would saying "RAIV Judge convertibles" be better? Whatever the case, your subsequent post shows you know what I'm talkin' about - using the "rare" and "desirable" cliche means nothing.

I'm not the only one who likes unusual cars. A 4-speed 4-door would not be unusual in Europe, but it is in America. If there was an American car that was born to be a 4-speed 4-door, it would be the Grand Am.

fiedlerh, where did you get the 1974 stick production figures?

[fiedlerh]

Originally Posted by Diego

fiedlerh, where did you get the 1974 stick production figures?

From Rocky Rotella.

1973
2,242 is the total for all 1973 Pontiac A-bodies with the M20 option.
The M20 could be ordered with any A-body as long as you got the L78 400 engine.
The M13 3-speed was standard with the L78 400. M13 not available in Safari or Grand Am.
1113 manual transmission GTOs were supposedly built, but this is M13 3-speed plus M20.
Supposedly around 25 M20's went into 1973 A-body wagons.
That means more than 1104 for Grand Ams and all Lemans. Most of them probably went into Grand Ams.

1974
833 is the total for all 1974 Pontiac A-bodies with the M20 option.
The M20 could be ordered with any A-body as long as you got the L78 engine, but no more M20 Safari wagon.
Around April 1974 Muncies were dropped and replaced with the aluminum BW ST-10.
No more 400/M13 3 speed combo in 1974.
I would imagine most M20's went into Grand Ams.

[Diego]

I would think the 4-speed would have been available with the 350. Sure about that?

[fiedlerh]

Yes you are correct. The M20 option appears to have been applied to all 4-speeds. With a 350 you would have gotten a Saginaw 4-speed.
Confirmed via Drive train chart and parts book.
So what I should say is thus:

1973
2,242 is the total for all 1973 Pontiac A-bodies with the M20 option.
The M20 could be ordered with any A-body
With the L78 400 engine you got the Muncie 4 speed.
With the 350 you got the Saginaw 4 speed.
Supposedly around 25 M20's went into 1973 A-body wagons and could be 400/Muncies or 350/Saginaws.
1113 manual transmission GTOs were supposedly built, but this is M13 3-speed plus M20.
That means more than 1104 for Grand Ams with 400/Muncie and Lemans with a mix of 350/Saginaws and 400/Muncies. Most of them probably went into Grand Ams.

1974
833 is the total for all 1974 Pontiac A-bodies with the M20 option.
The M20 could be ordered with any A-body, except the Safari wagon.
With the L78 400 engine you got the Muncie.
With the 350 you got the Saginaw.
Around April 1974 Muncies were dropped and replaced with the aluminum BW ST-10.
I would imagine more of the 833 M20's went into Grand Ams with either early 400/Muncie or later 400/ST-10 and fewer Lemans with a mix of 350/Saginaws and 400/Muncie or 400/ST-10.

Confusing, but it makes sense from an emissions and durability standpoint.
Now if 350/Saginaw 4-speed LeMans's were popular, maybe it's closer to half and half.

[camerjeff]

A Long time ago prior to Jim M getting the PHS records, Fred Simmonds did a quick search of the 73 records for me when I gave him the VIN on my 73 4-speed Lemans Safari, he looked thru aprox 500 Safari records, and found 1 other 400 4-speed, and three 350 4-speeds. So I think the number of 25 may be his estimate to me many years ago, his best guess was eight 400 4-speed wagons, and 17 350 4-speed wagons. But no hard numbers for wagon manual trans cars are available as far as I know.

[muscle_collector]

Originally Posted by camerjeff

A Long time ago prior to Jim M getting the PHS records, Fred Simmonds did a quick search of the 73 records for me when I gave him the VIN on my 73 4-speed Lemans Safari, he looked thru aprox 500 Safari records, and found 1 other 400 4-speed, and three 350 4-speeds. So I think the number of 25 may be his estimate to me many years ago, his best guess was eight 400 4-speed wagons, and 17 350 4-speed wagons. But no hard numbers for wagon manual trans cars are available as far as I know.

wow, too cool a 4 speed wagon. got any pics or phs????