[73LeMans]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

With that said, most of the current owners of these cars either don't have a pot to piss in, or don't like to part with their money when it comes time to buy parts for them.

I disagree with this statement much like I disagree with Brians statement saying similar.

I think initially yeah, they/we/I got them because they were cheap..didnt we all? None of us bought into muscle cars for the investment. Christ we did it for the fun factor! But because there is no resale value even today for these cars, how can we cant expect anything to change? Resale is where it all starts. If resale is high, you'll keep out that guy that buys in low, and wont spend money to make it worth something. But because resale isnt high, interest/demand isnt there, and we're not attracting the people looking to make investments, which is who really drives the market for these things - at least on TV anyway. Sure some of those auction guys are looking for a Salmon Red 64 Goat because they had one in high school, but thats not the norm, and hes also not spending 125K to get it. The collectors are buying those cars, and buying them because they increase the value of their portfolio and can be sold later for greater profit, not because they like the car. If you dont believe that, then explain why sales for anything but the most prime models of the marque are dropping. Investors and collectors are driving the market, and thus it really is, at least for now anyway, about business. These cars arent good business.

So now we need to ask ourselves - why arent these cars good business? Its been discussed before in a variation of threads, in a variation of ways, but Fiedler nailed most of them, and Chicagoland followed up. It certainly wasn't a supply problem. Pontiac produced more cars in 73 (919,870) than they did in 69 (870,081), 70 (690,953), 71 (586,856), and 72 (706,978). I just stole Wiki's numbers, and don't have a model breakdown, but assuming a proportionate number of models were made across the years, they made more in 73 than they did in previous years. These cars sure did ride and handle better than any before them, but handling and ride characteristics never sold a muscle car. Looks/sexiness and acceleration was key, and these cars didn't have either one. If you ask me, Id say the factory sealed the fate of these cars by not making them exciting enough from the get go... and the downward spiral began. i.e. Since the press wasn't excited by them, the consumers weren't excited by them. Because the consumers weren't excited about them, GM and the aftermarket companies said why bother create parts for losing proposition? Strike 3. You're out.

Even in the 80s when parts were readily available just through dealer overstock or whatever, who wanted to rebuild 250HP, 4400lbs sled when earlier GTOs were the stuff their dreams were made of, and at the time, were the same price??? It no wonder the lighter stronger and better looking (to the majority), survived. But now the strong is too expensive for the normal guy to enjoy, and if he wants a 70s muscle car, these is only the ABody left.

Personally, I've got plenty of pots to piss in, but I choose to spend my money on my 73 because I like being different. And I'll spend what I need to to keep the car running and looking good. Cheap? Hardly. Practical is more like it. I choose not to be in the expensive muscle car market for two reasons.

1.) I refuse to have investors and collectors set prices for me. If you want to know what that is like, look at the oil industry. Speculators and day traders determine what youll pay. Got nothing to do with supply and demand.

2.) Secondly, I feel there is nothing in this world that makes a muscle car worth the stupid money we see them fetching on those dumb auctions, I don't care about originality, rarity or anything of the sort. 150K for a Pontiac? 200K for a Mopar? I just don't see it, and never will. Heck I even struggle with the exotic car market values. Difference being is that I dont need to buy anything from the exotic car guys, and at least their cars push the envelope for performance. I can almost see them being worth what they are asking. But not the old cars.. Whenever I stick my head in in any of those cars, all I smell and see is a 40 year old car that someone overpaid for. It doesn't accelerate, brake, handle or do anything better than a car of the same vintage could today, with a 1/3 less money invested. And now the Auction Houses are trying to create that air of exclusivity by teaming up with builders to create their own limited run cars? Seems most of the car people are fooled into believing that the prices of their cars are a reflection of their worth. To me, all I see is a business looking to jack up and hype the prices of their products to further their bottom line. This line of cars they are creating is just a more obvious ploy to bilk people out of their money.

Bottom line is if I felt I needed a $700 RA system, Id buy one. But because I dont see it adding any benefit to my car, I'm cheap? How much money do I need to spend on this car before Im considered just crazy, instead of cheap? I think I have receipts in the 45k range...

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by 73LeMans

I disagree with this statement much like I disagree with Brians statement saying similar....

You are entitled to your opinion, but I wholeheartedly disagree with it.....

Originally Posted by 73LeMans

I think initially yeah, they/we/I got them because they were cheap..didnt we all? ....

I did not buy these cars because they were cheap.. or cheaper for that matter. As I have said a gazillion times before, I personally prefer the styling and the ride/handling over the previous generations. I owned one of the earlier ones, and absolutely hated it...what a fricking turd. I have in excess $40k tied up in the GTO and Can Am combined.

Originally Posted by 73LeMans

Christ we did it for the fun factor!....

There is one thing we can agree upon..

Originally Posted by 73LeMans

But because there is no resale value even today for these cars, how can we cant expect anything to change?!....

I guess $20k for a Can Am, as an example, is zero resale value.. Yeah, OK...

Originally Posted by 73LeMans

So now we need to ask ourselves - why arent these cars good business? Its been discussed before in a variation of threads, in a variation of ways, but Fiedler nailed most of them, and Chicagoland followed up. It certainly wasn't a supply problem. Pontiac produced more cars in 73 (919,870) than they did in 69 (870,081), 70 (690,953), 71 (586,856), and 72 (706,978). I just stole Wiki's numbers, and don't have a model breakdown, but assuming a proportionate number of models were made across the years, they made more in 73 than they did in previous years.....

Ok, to have great supply, there HAD TO BE DEMAND in the first place, correct? I understand that times and tastes change. People are fickle. That's why personal luxury coupes are not sold in the hundreds of thoudands today.

Originally Posted by 73LeMans

Looks/sexiness and acceleration was key, and these cars didn't have either one. If you ask me, Id say the factory sealed the fate of these cars by not making them exciting enough from the get go... and the downward spiral began. i.e. Since the press wasn't excited by them, the consumers weren't excited by them. Because the consumers weren't excited about them, GM and the aftermarket companies said why bother create parts for losing proposition? Strike 3. You're out......

Uhhh, what? You seem to have a fair amount of disdain towards these cars. I have to ask, why did you buy or build one? My Can Am has been noted by many people as a VERY attractive car, and even sexy by some. The '73 isn't as pretty, but still looks nice. Also, direct me to where the "press" said that these cars were a POS. I have SEVERAL magazine articles from "back in the day" and none of them had negativity towards these cars. In fact, it was the other way around. As I have posted in another thread, at least in 1973, a loaded 455 GTO was capable of a 14.7 quarter mile time, which was commendable, and does not make all of them the slugs that some ignorant people would like everyone to believe. These are the same idiots that do not know the difference between net and gross HP ratings.. The Can Ams were significantly slower, usually running 16.5-17.0 quarter mile times. Pontiac, specifically that a-hole Caserio, did drop the ball with the SD program, and with the Ram Air option. The rest can be attributed to the government regulations.

Originally Posted by 73LeMans

Even in the 80s when parts were readily available just through dealer overstock or whatever, who wanted to rebuild 250HP, 4400lbs sled when earlier GTOs were the stuff their dreams were made of, and at the time, were the same price??? ......

I have owned several of these cars, and not a one of them came anywhere close to 4400 lbs. Have you ever weighed a stock one? My GTO weighs 3720, Can Am 3880, and Enforcer 3990.

Originally Posted by 73LeMans

Personally, I've got plenty of pots to piss in, but I choose to spend my money on my 73 because I like being different. And I'll spend what I need to to keep the car running and looking good. Cheap? Hardly. Practical is more like it. I choose not to be in the expensive muscle car market for two reasons......I think I have receipts in the 45k range...

Ok, with $45k invested in your car, I suppose that you can't be classified as a cheap f*ck.

[Brian Baker]

Nah...without getting long winded...73-77 A-body owners are (now pay attention, this is the critical part of my statement) BY AND LARGE, cheap f**ks. Carry on.

[The Boss]

Um, Brian....

Us 68 to 72 GTO owners can be cheap ****s as well. Don't paint you and your 72-77 brethren to be some sort of exclusive club! (You still own that Can Am - right?)



...and thanks for the short answer - way too many words on posts 21 & 22.

[Brian Baker]

Still have the Can Am and have no intention of selling it.

[fiedlerh]

By negative press I meant articles in the late-80's-90's discussing collectability. It'll take time digging up examples. Agree that the press was positive back in the day.

Yes we can be cheap, but it only makes sense when they cost more to restore than what they will be worth.

Welcome all members to the "CF" club. I nominate Brian as the director of membership recruitment and we can all get T-shirts to wear to the next swap meet.

[77 Canamman]

Hey, I like that shirt. It would look good hung in the closet next to my rare and desirable "Wears Gach?" t-shirt.

[fiedlerh]

...and quite practical to wear if we have painting to do.

[73LeMans]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

I did not buy these cars because they were cheap.. or cheaper for that matter. As I have said a gazillion times before, I personally prefer the styling and the ride/handling over the previous generations. I owned one of the earlier ones, and absolutely hated it...what a fricking turd. I have in excess $40k tied up in the GTO and Can Am combined.

Rick - youre doing the same thing I do - taking this too personally. YOU personally may have bought these cars for those reasons, but the general public did not. Thats all I'm saying. If they loved the handling and all that other stuff so much, I would think, with more of thse cars being produced, youd see more of them being restored today. But you dont. Why is that? If the previous year cars were such big turds (which I agree they were in most categories) why 40 years later are they more popular than the 73-77s?

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

I guess $20k for a Can Am, as an example, is zero resale value.. Yeah, OK...

One example. Great car. But I can give more examples of great cars that didnt sell for than we can for ones that did. How about Mark Delanos frame on resto 73 GTO that DIDNT sell on eBay for a mere 18,500? 4 spd car, original engine block, trans, starlight black. The car is freaking beautiful. Didnt sell. What about that NOS rear quarter on eBay, that dude is still trying to get 950 for? Heck, GM quarters for a 70 Nova can go for upwards of 1500 a piece. This one cant sell for 950? Besides, how many Can Ams were made? 1100? Relatively few compared to even the thinist of the GTO years, right? Evne though I personally dont give a crap about rarity, I know it sells cars.

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

Ok, to have great supply, there HAD TO BE DEMAND in the first place, correct?

I disagree. GM makes what it thinks it can sell, not necessarily what people ask for. There may have been great demand and expectation for a powerhouse car like the earlier GTO, but when GM gave people something far less for the same or more money, I cant imagine people were happy with it. When compared to the tri powered Goat they may have owned previously or inspired them to buy a Pontiac, I can see why what they got, wasnt inspiring.

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

Uhhh, what? You seem to have a fair amount of disdain towards these cars. I have to ask, why did you buy or build one? My Can Am has been noted by many people as a VERY attractive car, and even sexy by some. The '73 isn't as pretty, but still looks nice. Also, direct me to where the "press" said that these cars were a POS. I have SEVERAL magazine articles from "back in the day" and none of them had negativity towards these cars. In fact, it was the other way around. As I have posted in another thread, at least in 1973, a loaded 455 GTO was capable of a 14.7 quarter mile time, which was commendable, and does not make all of them the slugs that some ignorant people would like everyone to believe. These are the same idiots that do not know the difference between net and gross HP ratings.. The Can Ams were significantly slower, usually running 16.5-17.0 quarter mile times. Pontiac, specifically that a-hole Caserio, did drop the ball with the SD program, and with the Ram Air option. The rest can be attributed to the government regulations.

Disdain? Seriously? I've been a member of the Abody site for 13 years now, my freaking screen name is 73Lemans on this site, the Abodysite, photobucket, and countless others. Ive been in HPP with this car, its on my business cards, and I've been working to do nothing but invest money in this particular car for 25 years. If I didn't care about these cars, would I be taking the time to respond to this gibberish? I love this car, been driving it since I had a license and its been in the family since day 1, but it doesn't mean I cant be objective, and see what the GENERAL PUBLIC sees when it comes to things. They weren't as attractive as the earlier GTOs. Take a look at the polls launched on this site and others, and look around to see who is building what. Then tell me again how popular these cars were with everybody. 14.7 in the quarter is great, compared to the slow cars of the same year, but compared to the mid to high 13s some of the better GTOs ran in the day, why would anyone think that was quick? I'm not saying its bad, all I'm saying is compared to what buyers were expecting, (insofar as previous year cars) it wasn't getting it done. Because of that, when 30 years later, they go to build car, why would they choose the 73?

Look to Fiedler for press. He said he can get some, and knowing hes a valued and trusted Abody resource, I went on what he said.

These cars are attractive TODAY, but thats because cars overall, have gotten uglier since 73. Put a 73 next to a 69 GTO however, all else being the same, and Im betting 80% of the people polled will think the earlier goat is more attractive.

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

I have owned several of these cars, and not a one of them came anywhere close to 4400 lbs. Have you ever weighed a stock one? My GTO weighs 3720, Can Am 3880, and Enforcer 3990.

Typing error...I meant 4100. That isnt too far off the 73GA shipping weight of 3992 (ref. Abodysite). Put a driver in and 4100 is easy.

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

Ok, with $45k invested in your car, I suppose that you can't be classified as a cheap f*ck.

Man, I hope not. But this is over 25 years, so maybe it still applies.

[Ben M.]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

I really don't believe you tried very hard to sell your GA. I only saw it for sale here and on the A body site, and most people know stuff very rarely ever sells on this board.

Where else was I supposed to sell it? I used Craiglist, eBay, and these boards. Only one call in 18 months. I don't care about top dollar at all, I just wanted it to go to a good home. I am not naive to expect I was going to get 5 figures for it or anything like that, like I said I wanted someone to appreciate it.

[Brian Baker]

I see quite a few comments and concerns about "resale value" as compared to what it costs to restore these cars. If you guys are concerned about resale value, then you're speculating. As an automotive enthusiast and general gearhead, I have never considered "resale value" with any car I have ever built. If I had, they never would have been built, and I never would have had the same level of fun and sense of accomplishment with them. Your money, do with it what you wish, but I have never subscribed to the "I'm not going to spend any money on it because I can't get it back if I sell it" mentality.

[cdrookie]

beauty is in the eye of the beholder. i never cared for GA's, and cam am's are OK but i wouldn't want one. i bought my 75 lemans after i saw a 74 in a magazine. i've got enough money tied up in it that i could've had a pretty nice 60's goat, and it's still not close to finished... but it is different, and that to me, makes it cool.

as for $500 ram air... i'll pass. i could get a piece of sheetmetal, foam, and an air cleaner, and make something that'll work just as good for WAY cheaper. originality isn't important to me.

[73LeMans]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

I see quite a few comments and concerns about "resale value" as compared to what it costs to restore these cars. If you guys are concerned about resale value, then you're speculating. As an automotive enthusiast and general gearhead, I have never considered "resale value" with any car I have ever built. If I had, they never would have been built, and I never would have had the same level of fun and sense of accomplishment with them. Your money, do with it what you wish, but I have never subscribed to the "I'm not going to spend any money on it because I can't get it back if I sell it" mentality.

I couldnt agree more Brian. I never cared about anything that would add "resale value" to any car Ive ever dealt with. I added it because I thought it was cool, or it would help me go quicker. I am never selling this car, so if its worth 3K or 100K, I couldn't care less. I brought up resale value only because IMO the people that are driving the musclecar market, ONLY care about resale value, and thus, wont invest in these 73-77 cars. There are far more cars they can flip for a quicker profit.

[4spdT37]

I own a 73 Buick Gran Sport Stage1 with 4spd trans.
It is a current feature car in Musclecar Enthusiast Magazine.

It is probably top ten nicest 73 Gran Sport left in existence,maybe even top 5???

I doubt I could get over $18.5k for the car, and actually I have/had a guy interested at this price, but we couldn't agree on payment(I said pile of Ben Franklin's only, he wanted a wire transfer)

This is my 4th Colonnade, and I will buy another if mine should happen to sell, but if it doesn't sell, I'm cool with keeping it.

Most Buick guy's have a love-hate feeling for these cars. For me it kind of grew on me after I owned one. Used to be if you owned ANY Buick, you could be unique or different at a car show, and this oddball 73 just up's the ante.

Personally, I feel my frame-off restored 73 should bring $25k, but the rest of the world obviously is still in love with the inferior early cars.

The 73-77's( if rust free ) are better built, and better riding/handling cars than the 64-72's.

A friend of mine Jeff Sawruk, has a good way of defining these cars--"They are rare, but not desireable, kind of like crapping your pants, Rare yes, desireable NO.

Now I just bought an undesireable 74 GP SJ that I'm thinking of wasting money on restoring.

[77 Canamman]

Stunning Buick. Definitely my favorite.

[Fake Goat]

Originally Posted by 77 Canamman

Stunning Buick. Definitely my favorite.

X2

I love the fact that I can go to any cruise and not ever see a single Grand Am or Lemans from the mid 70's. Frankly, a beautifully restored late 60's GTO, Chevelle, Mopar, or Ford does nothing for me. The are a dime a dozen, overpriced, easy to restore because of an overabundance of aftermarket parts, and did I mention overpriced? As a group, they are as common as a Ford Taurus, and about as exciting.

Even when the GA was looking pretty sketchy before entering bodyshop purgatory, I would still get thumbs-up while driving it. Can't imagine what it will be like when it is done.

[fiedlerh]

Nice Car! How about an interior shot of that Buick showing the shifter?
Any idea how many they made?
I've always wondered what engine and 4-speed combos were available for Buick and Old for 73-74 and how many were made.

[77 Canamman]

1973 Cutlass/442 4 speed:





2,230 Cutlass' came with a Rocket 455, and only 95 got the 270hp V-code/four- speed combo

829 Cutlass Supremes (both 350- and 455-powered) built with a factory-installed four-speed

1973 Gran Sport:





6637 produced

4930 350 CID

979 455CID

728 455 Stage 1

365 total 4 speed cars.

92 Stage 1 4 speed cars

[Norwood]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

I guess there's more enthusiasts needing wheel opening moldings than there are those with NACA hoods that want to make them functional.

WOW somebody that REALLY KNOWS what this design scoop is called. Brian you are the man........ SO many people call this a NASA DUCT, but it is really a NACA DUCT. I know I am beating a DEAD HORSE.

[77 Canamman]

Originally Posted by Norwood

WOW somebody that REALLY KNOWS what this design scoop is called. Brian you are the man........ SO many people call this a NASA DUCT, but it is really a NACA DUCT. I know I am beating a DEAD HORSE.

Even Pontiac called it NASA scoops in my 1973 dealer literature....