#61  
Old 05-13-2012, 02:03 PM
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"Cliff I would bet 130 would even be on the light side of pressures for most folks to use with a SFT that is not as an aggressive a lobe as the HR lobes using a SR."

Skip, keep in mind that we are using hydraulic roller camshafts, and simply substituting a solid roller lifter for the HR's to lighten things up, and take the hydraulic action of the lifters out of the equation. These cams are pretty "aggressive" right off the base circle with no "take up ramp", but work fine with solid lifters and .005" lash set-up.

It's all "theory" until you are out there doing it. My engine lives fine after several years of use now, just made 10 runs last Friday evening and it shows no signs of wanting to quit revving, or loss of power at any rpm.

On two of the runs I made there was ZERO traction available, and the engine spun right past 6000rpms so quick on the launch I couldn't get out of it fast enough. I happened to look down a the tach on one of those runs and saw it go to 6400rpm's.

I took a quick listen after the run, valvetrain was dead quiet, so I figured I didn't smack a piston or bend/break anything.

I've logged enough dragstrip time with high rpm set-ups that I know what happens when your springs go "soft" or there are high rpm issues associated with not enough spring pressure(s).

I used to drag race a 283 SBC that I shifted at 7000rpm's, and went thru right at 7500rpm's. A set of springs that I could afford in those days were good for about 50-60 runs. As soon as I'd here it "crackle" up near the finish line in high gear it was time for another set of springs.

I heard the same deal with my last 455 right at 5800rpm's, where the HR"s just couldn't keep doing what they were supposed to. This "hybrid" set up does NOT exhibit any symptoms associated with not enough spring pressure(s) for the rpm range that I'm running the engine in......Cliff

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73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile),
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Old 05-13-2012, 02:47 PM
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What about using bee hives?

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Old 05-13-2012, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff R View Post
" It's all "theory" until you are out there doing it. My engine lives fine after several years of use now, just made 10 runs last Friday evening and it shows no signs of wanting to quit revving, or loss of power at any rpm.

On two of the runs I made there was ZERO traction available, and the engine spun right past 6000rpms so quick on the launch I couldn't get out of it fast enough. I happened to look down a the tach on one of those runs and saw it go to 6400rpm's.

Cliff
Cliff, How much have u really shifted that car tho at 6000 in the last couple of years? Also spinning up to or past 6000 isn't the same as having the car pull with a load to that point. I would think it's different for the engine? Everything I read from you about your car, especially since its under the rollbar , u shift it at 5000 or there abouts ,cause its just bracket racing. I will be shifting at 6 all day. I have seen you say if u think u cut a bad light u do run it up some more or whatever, what I am trying to say here, Is being your engine as been in service since 07-08 now? I would be very interested in what your actual pressures are now, just for comparison, since I am going this same route. I have verified mine at a IH of 1.750 their only at 145, so your's being taller yet I would like to know, Doesn't take long to pull one out and have it tested. I also tested mine at 1.800 and they were only 130, these springs only have 7 passes on them too.That way if yours are on the light side and u been running this long we can all sleep better at night then, especially me since i am trying this! I am really looking forward to this and not having a ticker anymore!

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74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
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2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32
M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial

2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's
  #64  
Old 05-13-2012, 04:07 PM
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Darby, the cam is pretty much done around 5600-5800 so there is no need to shift at or past 6000rpm's. Almost every single time I street drive the car it gets at least one "proof" test, and it spins right past 6000rpms so quick you can hardly move the shifter fast enough to keep it from approaching 6500rpms. If/when the springs start to go "soft", I'll suppose I may put a piston in the oil pan or bend a valve pretty hard, or both! So far, it doesn't grumble at all when I test it.

For bracket racing, there is no need to "grind" up the engine to put folks on the trailer, so I usually shift at 5000rpms for all runs. If I don't think I'm going to get to the finish line first, or feel I was a tad late on the light, I'll "buzz" the engine to 5800rpm's and make sure my opponent NEVER has a chance to get out of it.

I've been doing this for many years, with all the 455's that have powered my car, and it has proven to be a very good way to go rounds, and win races.

My next engine is already in the works, and will use the larger camshaft, with a bit more compression than I'm running now.

I'm on the fence whether to use Beehive/retainers and go back to HR's, or continue to use the HIPPO's tight lashed. Ken Keefer has been very successful with the HR's and lighter valvetrain components, and it is attractive for my car as it's a real PITA to run the valves as the A/C box, wiper motor, and brake booster are all right in the darned way, since the engine sits so far back in these cars......Cliff

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73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile),
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Old 05-13-2012, 04:13 PM
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Cliff, I understand the car not nosing over etc, I am just curious where your actual pressure is now, It would be good for us to all know since your car runs so well...
would not take that long to pull a spring and check it with your retainer(Believe you run titaniums? ) for us all that run this set up using that same spring etc, Remember I run the bigger cam so it will pull past the OF.

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74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74


2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32
M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial

2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's
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Old 05-13-2012, 04:24 PM
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I'll make sure and test them when I swap in my new engine, which should happen before Norwalk if all goes well in the next few months.

I've got enough spring pressure to spin right past 6000rpm's without any popping, loosing power etc, so they are at least good enough for what I'm doing with room to spare.......Cliff

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73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile),
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Old 05-13-2012, 04:57 PM
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I think only "pulling a spring or two and testing it", is only halfway doing it.

Really isn't telling you nearly the whole story.

Do it right and check all 16, then be done with it.

We test all of them even for just a 200 hp stock rebuild, be surprised how many you'll find rock along there within 2-3 lbs of the previous ones then an oops shows up when you don't suspect it. And thats right out of the box.

Food for thought.

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Old 05-13-2012, 05:00 PM
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Course you could put em all on a cookie sheet out of the box and pop em in the oven and bake them babies at 250 degrees for bout 8 hours to season them, then check em.

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Old 05-13-2012, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tuned View Post
I think only "pulling a spring or two and testing it", is only halfway doing it.

Really isn't telling you nearly the whole story.

Do it right and check all 16, then be done with it.

We test all of them even for just a 200 hp stock rebuild, be surprised how many you'll find rock along there within 2-3 lbs of the previous ones then an oops shows up when you don't suspect it. And thats right out of the box.

Food for thought.
True Bob, But Being these were new I figured why check them all? I was just making sure i had the pressure's i was told I should have at that height, was suprised to see less, you think both the #1 , INT, EXH springs were just a coincedence they were identical? I got all my old ones I am going to test tomorrow, they were on my car since late 08, and ran them til I parked the grandville last fall.

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74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74


2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32
M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial

2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:45 PM
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with all due respect the cam is not done at 6000,the intake is done at 6000.Put a 2-4 tunnel ram and the springs to handle the RPMs and it will make HP past 6500.Tom

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Old 05-13-2012, 05:48 PM
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with all due respect the cam is not done at 6000,the intake is done at 6000.Put a 2-4 tunnel ram and the springs to handle the RPMs and it will make HP past 6500.Tom
Who is this for Tom? I run a victor Intake, and dominator

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74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74


2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32
M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial

2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's
  #72  
Old 05-13-2012, 05:59 PM
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at no one,just what I have found running the cam with diff intakes.IMO,the victor with the right springs should be good to 6500.I have run the cam in RA V engines and KRE D ports with diff intakes and both have been done at around 5800-6000 with dual plane intakes and around 6500-6700 with tunnel rams.Tom

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Old 05-13-2012, 07:33 PM
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.030-over 455
4.250 stroke
Road Paver hydraulic roller cam ( Comp lobes 3115B & 3116B )
With Crower solid roller lifters
1.52 rocker ratio
KRE 300/305 cylinder head package / 2.110" intake
Torker II intake / HP950 carb w/ 1-inch carb spacer

Engine made peak power at 5800 rpm on the dyno.
Peak torque at 4700 rpm.


.

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Old 05-13-2012, 08:21 PM
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Darby what I mean is this, just randomly pulling 1 or 2 from a box and checking them only means you know what those 2 are when you check them. The rest who knows....ya theyre all supposed to be the same and the sets you get today for the most part are compared to years ago, but you only know by checking them all for sure. It only takes one spring to ruin the party.

I have the Rimac tester that goes to 500 pounds and pop has the 1000 pound version so I can check a pretty wide variety of springs between the two. Since we got those testers and yes they were bought new, we've checked around 25-30 sets of springs. Certainly not alot by most engine builder standards, but I've seen a pretty good amount of pulling on that lever.

You'd be surprised what a box of 16 springs new in the box could tell you. Theres always 1 or 2 in there that aint right. And they may be close or way off, who knows, thats why ya test them all.

Checking a couple is good... better than nothing at all for sure ,but if you're worrying about 1 or two or any, nothing will replace the security of checking them all and check them all and get peace of mind knowing where you are.

Test, don't guess!

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Old 05-13-2012, 08:25 PM
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Bob, I guess Once I check the open pressures tomorrow of the two I pulled off will tell me what to do, I will also be checking some of the ones that i pulled off the car from before that had many runs on them, I have no way of taking them all off now and checking them. So Unless they don't spec out tomorrrow then i will buy new and have them all checked before hand, best i can do.

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74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74


2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32
M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial

2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's
  #76  
Old 05-13-2012, 10:08 PM
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FWIW, I've dyno'd quite a few engines similiar to the one in discussion here with KRE and Edelbrock heads on them, with flat cams, HR cams, and solid roller cams.

Back to back to back to back I've swapped iron intakes, RPM's, HO's, T-II's, Tomahawk, and the Victor. Played around with spacers on just about every one of them as well. I've never once observed an intake raise peak HP very far in the RPM range. I've seen intakes make a butt-load more power than others, but never had one quit at 5500rpm's and another pull to past 6000rpms on the same engine with no other changes.

From what I've seen, the cam controls when/where the power is made, the intake shift it around, narrow it up, or spread it out, but do NOT raise the rpm's very much one to another.

I suppose this wouldn't hold true if we were trying to run a small dual plane like a Performer on a 505 cid engine with a 260 @ .050 cam in it, then swapped to a Victor. I'm simply talking about engines we typically build here, using E-heads or KRE's to about 300cfms, and cams in the 230 to 250 range @ .050".......Cliff

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73 Ventura, SOLD 455, 3740lbs, 11.30's at 120mph, 1977 Pontiac Q-jet, HO intake, HEI, 10" converter, 3.42 gears, DOT's, 7.20's at 96mph and still WAY under the roll bar rule. Best ET to date 7.18 at 97MPH (1/8th mile),
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Old 05-13-2012, 11:20 PM
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My previous 462 with 254 degrees intake duration made peak power at 5800 rpm with the Performer RPM intake and peak power at 6000 rpm with the Victor intake. My 505 with the 260 degree cam followed the same trend between the two intakes, give or take depending on the pull, about a 200 rpm differance.



.

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'70 TA / 505 cid / same engine but revised ( previous best 10.63 at 127.05 )
Old information here:
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712p...tiac-trans-am/

Sponsor of the world's fastest Pontiac powered Ford Fairmont (engine)
5.14 at 140 mph (1/8 mile) , true 10.5 tire, stock type suspension
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDoJnIP3HgE
  #78  
Old 05-14-2012, 11:56 AM
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Darby check them all. I have a box of new Manley Nex Tek springs that are all over the place by 15%-some cheaper Howards for another roller all right on the button withing 1-2%. Also when I went to flowbench a friend's stock RAIV head that had been running fine I found 4 broken inners. Having a spring tester WITH a dial indicator is the only way to get accurrate results-even the scaled ruller on the side of the Rimac is hard to get exact.

Cliff I realize these are aggressive lobes and what you are doing why the 130 is probably too light-might not need 280. But 150-170 would not be a bad goal.Maybe even 200.

Also as many folks have found stiff springs and many motors pull more rpm well.Soem folks have even found keeping the HR with stiffer springs they can spin higher just fine. Again check with Lynn where his rpm peak went with better springs.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
  #79  
Old 05-14-2012, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
Darby check them all. I have a box of new Manley Nex Tek springs that are all over the place by 15%-some cheaper Howards for another roller all right on the button withing 1-2%. Also when I went to flowbench a friend's stock RAIV head that had been running fine I found 4 broken inners. Having a spring tester WITH a dial indicator is the only way to get accurrate results-even the scaled ruller on the side of the Rimac is hard to get exact.

Cliff I realize these are aggressive lobes and what you are doing why the 130 is probably too light-might not need 280. But 150-170 would not be a bad goal.Maybe even 200.

Also as many folks have found stiff springs and many motors pull more rpm well.Soem folks have even found keeping the HR with stiffer springs they can spin higher just fine. Again check with Lynn where his rpm peak went with better springs.
Skip
I can't check them all, How would I keep the valves from falling out into the cylinder then, the heads are on the car, so pretty much impossible unless i bought all new springs again! The guy used a valve height micrometer and set it to my 1.75 on the machine, then put my spring and retainer in.

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74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74


2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32
M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial

2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's
  #80  
Old 05-14-2012, 12:47 PM
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One cylinder at a time You can also use one of the Moroso lever type checkers with rocker arms still on like alot of the hard core guys do after every pass.

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1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever!
1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand
1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project
2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4
1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project
1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs
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