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Old 11-19-2013, 08:30 PM
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Any info on you r combo drag racer too? I'm a new convert had a few learning experience s but it runs pretty well and don't plan on changing back any time soon

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Old 11-19-2013, 08:39 PM
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http://www.ethanol.org/index.php?id=34&parentid=8
http://www.e85tech.net/Default.htm
http://e85prices.com/

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Old 11-19-2013, 08:45 PM
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I run it through a mechanical injector - so it's fat city. The key to keeping the oil clean is getting some heat in the oil. Oil is going to delta up from the coolant, so unless you flat can't get any heat at all you shouldn't have an issue. Yes it's alcohol so it attracts water like methanol, however in use it is not as corrosive as methanol. If varying percentages in the pump blend is a concern with your fueling system you can blend all your fuel down to, for example, 70%. At 70% you'll still get the vast majority of benefit you'd get from E85 but you won't have to worry about the tuneup moving slightly.

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Old 11-19-2013, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Dragracertoo View Post
I've been running E-85 for 6 years and have never had a problem with it. E85 is user friendly with only adequate fuel delivery from a gas fuel pump and an E85 specific carb needed.
I have never been double- crossed by any of the myths you can make up about it either.
Don't over think it and just enjoy the savings.
We have run 9.11/147 and have had to use ether on 30 deg. days to get it to start in Northern Il.(so what!) Alky guys dump gas down their carbs to get theirs started in cold weather.I guess I could use gas too!
I would suggest drain all E85 out of the fuel system and carb. ( squirters too) for the winter,purging with gas until spring.
I also have never had an issue with the percentage of E85 after the winter blend is over .E70 has more gas (rich) just take out a jet size if it's not at 85% yet.
You can argue about what you think could be problems or use it like we do,and will continue to do so. Rich
My previous post is based on hauling ethanol to the loading racks from the distilleries and hauling E85 to the stations here in Ohio. So that should end your concern about myths, all real experience with the fuel not hearsay. The post didn't say that there would be a problem or try in any way to sway anyone's choice of fuel, I just validated what John said about knowing exactly what you have in your tank. There is no way to know exactly what octane your buying or what blend it is.

With the percentage varying of gas to ethanol blend the ECM in a modern car adjusts the fuel air mixture to compensate for whatever you last bought. The only way you have to vary mixture with a carb is manually changing jets, not only does the ratio of gas to alcohol change so is the octane changing. A loading rack does not tell customers what octane gas they cut it with, or what percentage they use when they blend it. Cold hard facts, not meant to say your going to have trouble, just that there can be a large variance from one load, or one gas station to another. You can do whatever you want with the info and it won't hurt my feelings in the least.

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Old 11-19-2013, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
My previous post is based on hauling ethanol to the loading racks from the distilleries and hauling E85 to the stations here in Ohio. So that should end your concern about myths, all real experience with the fuel not hearsay. The post didn't say that there would be a problem or try in any way to sway anyone's choice of fuel, I just validated what John said about knowing exactly what you have in your tank. There is no way to know exactly what octane your buying or what blend it is.

With the percentage varying of gas to ethanol blend the ECM in a modern car adjusts the fuel air mixture to compensate for whatever you last bought. The only way you have to vary mixture with a carb is manually changing jets, not only does the ratio of gas to alcohol change so is the octane changing. A loading rack does not tell customers what octane gas they cut it with, or what percentage they use when they blend it. Cold hard facts, not meant to say your going to have trouble, just that there can be a large variance from one load, or one gas station to another. You can do whatever you want with the info and it won't hurt my feelings in the least.
Most e85 is made with low octane gas. IF making E85 from E99 its highly recommended to NOT cut it with race gas. Purpose of the gas in first place is to help lite it off especially when cold. Low octane gas lights off easier than race gas.

You can test it at the pump if you want... just buy a small quanity and put some in your tester. Only takes a few minutes. Testers are inexpensive or you can make your own.

BTW the Feds DO have standards as to whats allowable for motor vehicle use. Currently E10(typical pump gas) and E70-85. Its currently NOT legal to sell E15 E30 E60 from the pump in vehicles intended for highway use.

If you are tuned for 85% and get a load at 70% your going to run somewhat richer ... Some racers tune for 70% and dilute their fuel with gas if the percentage of alcohol is significantly higher... most just rejet if carbureted. You can buy E99 by the barrel and either make your E85 or use it to adjust E70 up to whatever level you want.

Racers have reported no detonation differences if tuned for mix they run. Though typically rated around 105 octane, racers, especially guys running boosted motors, many are running same or greater boost than they could run on c15 which is race gas specifically formulated for boosted motors. E85 helps cool the charge temps making the fuel mix less prone to preignition/detonation.

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Old 11-19-2013, 09:59 PM
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I think the percentage thing is a non factor in actuality,Not losing races because of that! LOL.Too many positive's to worry about it. A guy running alky is going to run alky,A guy running gas will save alot of money without major changes. Rich

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Old 11-19-2013, 10:32 PM
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Down here in Fl we do not see the percentage changes like you northern folks but does fluctuate a bit 82-88% but for the most part it is +-2% and is well within tolerances. But if you run your car in the cold weather up there just get a drum or two of e85 when you check during the warmer months if you are that concerned about it - once you actually use it you will find it is no where as touchy as one might think - e85 can be stored as long as it is sealed it will keep well for up to a year if needed and some has gone out to two (I won't).
 
Rich you nail it right on the head with your statement "You can argue about what you think could be problems or use it like we do,and will continue to do so."

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Old 11-19-2013, 10:57 PM
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This is but one side of the equation and to one specific use for the fuel. Sure, you can build an engine to take advantage of the inherent positive properties of ethanol (cooler running, higher resistance to detonation [octane]) and that makes it a great potential choice for the track. Running this in a passenger car does not, in my opinion, make economic or environmental sense. I have stacks of studies, reams of information about true cost to manufacture and the ancillary effects of ethanol production on food supply/prices and wetlands and dry lands and.... Regardless of which camp you find yourself in, Ethanol can not compete in the market as a regular fuel without massive subsidies. That point alone tells me nearly all I need to know.

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Old 11-20-2013, 12:03 AM
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All alcohols are hygroscopic.
Ethanol makes less HP per pound than methanol.
All 'gasahol' type fuels are ethanol based.

So all the crap said about gas with 10% alcohol applies to E85.
All alcohol fuels require different setups than plain gasoline.
Alcohol is corrosive.
Water in the alcohol causes a lot of the problems in cars also.
(whether ethanol or methanol)

The water in the oil is mostly from race vehicles.
They don't run their cars for minutes let alone hours.
They try to keep the engine cold.
(for more HP)

If the engine is kept hot it will evaporate the water.
Idling on a race car is where most of the water in the oil comes from.

I use methanol in racing for the power it makes and the ability to keep the engine cool.

Being a lot cheaper than either gasoline or E85 is an added benefit.

Plus I know what percentage of alcohol it is at all times.

Have you ever run E-85, do you have any actual experience with it? Yes or no?

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Old 11-20-2013, 09:50 AM
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Have you ever run E-85, do you have any actual experience with it? Yes or no?
No


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Old 11-20-2013, 12:06 PM
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This is but one side of the equation and to one specific use for the fuel. Sure, you can build an engine to take advantage of the inherent positive properties of ethanol (cooler running, higher resistance to detonation [octane]) and that makes it a great potential choice for the track. Running this in a passenger car does not, in my opinion, make economic or environmental sense. I have stacks of studies, reams of information about true cost to manufacture and the ancillary effects of ethanol production on food supply/prices and wetlands and dry lands and.... Regardless of which camp you find yourself in, Ethanol can not compete in the market as a regular fuel without massive subsidies. That point alone tells me nearly all I need to know.
You think the oil companies arent subsidized? Think oil companies are going to "correct" the untruths being thrown around about a product they dont want to compete with? Think they have no hand in the disinformation campaign thats ongoing? Oil companies used their $$$$$$$$$ to crush ethanols use as a motor fuel 100 years ago... do you really think they have had a change of heart?

If so I got something you want to buy!

Is it the perfect fuel? No, but neither is gasoline.

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Old 11-20-2013, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by 68gtoMN View Post
This is but one side of the equation and to one specific use for the fuel. Sure, you can build an engine to take advantage of the inherent positive properties of ethanol (cooler running, higher resistance to detonation [octane]) and that makes it a great potential choice for the track. Running this in a passenger car does not, in my opinion, make economic or environmental sense. I have stacks of studies, reams of information about true cost to manufacture and the ancillary effects of ethanol production on food supply/prices and wetlands and dry lands and.... Regardless of which camp you find yourself in, Ethanol can not compete in the market as a regular fuel without massive subsidies. That point alone tells me nearly all I need to know.
68gtoMN - your making reference to food (corn) for ethanol dates your source(s), if you have the time watch the two You Tube video links in my first post and many of the myths are cleared up.

And I do agree ethanol is not the "end all beat all" but is a step in the right direction...atleast for some of us racers and performance enthusiasts.

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Old 11-20-2013, 05:45 PM
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Hey Everybody,
This is very good information and interesting discussion. My question about moisture in cold temps is related to my experience and the possible issues that I have with my block.

Once I got to work with the small quirks of e85 - the starting, fuel supply and fuel testing - tuning issues, I love it and the car runs the best ever.
Its available here and it works for me.

I would run pump gas if I didn't have to change pistons.

I'm just glad that people have a variety of options that are best for them.
Thanks Again, Craig

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Old 11-20-2013, 07:27 PM
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68gtoMN - your making reference to food (corn) for ethanol dates your source(s), if you have the time watch the two You Tube video links in my first post and many of the myths are cleared up.
Yes I watched. Peak moment? Bearded, plaid shirt-wearing, pony-tailed granolas calling for a Post Petroleum Local Economy? Climate change? I am familiar with David Blume also - he's an industry all to himself, getting speaking fees, writing books to fan the conspiracy theory flames and making "big oil" a criminal in his eyes - evil. He is self-aggrandizer #1.

Here's the danger with this topic (and with people like David Blume) - it is sprinkled with enough facts/data to apparently (loosely) support a proposition, which is then expanded broadly to imply that this is a viable, sustainable solution for mass markets. It is not. He uses illogical syllogism to great effect. Celluloic Ethanol being the "great savior"... Ha! Clean production? Ha. Acid Hydrolysis is used in more than 80% of such ventures. Everything is a conspiracy supported by "The American Petroleum Institute" and he attempts to refute their claims by stating that "several authors" have written books that counter their claims, while David himself laughs and degrades anyone who makes claims that David's position is untenable. He cites no proof of his claims, he merely makes them. If he had been right, there would have been an economic explosion decades ago for this. He's not right.

I have trouble when this man wants to profer claims based on energy contained in a unit of Ethanol, then talk about thermal efficiency and how when used in a gasoline engine it only loses 10-12% mileage. HA HA HA. Sorry. it has 30% less energy (British Thermal Units or BTUs) per unit of fuel; therefore, we require 30% more energy to move the same load the same distance as with gasoline. You can't beat the laws of physics.

Here's a directly related question for performance applications: How much larger do racers need to make their jets and fuel systems in order to run e-85 in their cars vs gasoline? Does the number 30% ring a bell to anyone??

I apologize for being a tad bit flippant in my responses above. I struggle with psuedo science and claims on a subject by "authorities" who ignore scientific fact and market realities and provide no real world proof for their claims. I fully support this guy wanting to make his own biofuels. I fully support him wanting to teach others to do so! Go for it....ON YOUR OWN. I do not support him if he must "coerce/force" me into paying for his pursuit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WARPed View Post
And I do agree ethanol is not the "end all beat all" but is a step in the right direction...atleast for some of us racers and performance enthusiasts.
Your response directly above captures the sentiment and words I used in my post. Yes, there is a use for this product and there are inherent advantages in using this product for certain situations - racing and higher power output being two of them.

My issues with alcohols in the standard fuel supply are many, and this is where we disagree. Having the choice is fine - I'm all for it. However, the choice for me (living in MN) to NOT have the alcohol in the fuel does not exist.

Via tax breaks, direct credits and other mfg subsidies, the true cost of this alternative fuel is suppressed. Regardless of source material, it is not economial to produce, contains less energy per unit than gasoline, requires different storage and distribution technologies, can't be manufactured in sufficient quanties to ease any demand for gasoline, etc. The proponents of gasahol (regardless of blend %) want the cheaper fuel prices that only come with subsidy. Without that, the customers stop purchasing the fuels and refineries shut down.

There is no question about performance enhancing properties when used correctly (engines configured to take advantage of resistance to detonation, fuel supplies increased/tuned, etc). No argument there. I believe people who wish to use such fuels should pay the full cost (best actual representative cost) for the fuel without mandating that I participate in this as a tax payer.

Remember, never underestimate a person's ability to rationalize for their own cause. I support your new found interest in running alcohol in your car(s) and wish you success in reaching your goals. I just don't want to be forced to participate at the pump.

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Old 11-20-2013, 07:37 PM
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You think the oil companies arent subsidized? Think oil companies are going to "correct" the untruths being thrown around about a product they dont want to compete with? Think they have no hand in the disinformation campaign thats ongoing? Oil companies used their $$$$$$$$$ to crush ethanols use as a motor fuel 100 years ago... do you really think they have had a change of heart?

If so I got something you want to buy!

Is it the perfect fuel? No, but neither is gasoline.
Bruce, let's not mix topics here. The oil companies offer products derived from petroleum that stand on their own. They are for-profit enterprises. Even without ANY incentive/subsidy, there would be a market for their products and customers would pay for them - gasoline included. Where there IS a subsidy in "gasoline" it is for the Government - they make many times more profit from the sale of a gallon of gasoline than does any Oil company. Fact. Ethanol, on the other hand, has many hurdles to overcome that gasoline does not. Ethanol does not stand on it's own in the marketplace without subsidies. Plants close when mandates are removed or subsidies lessened. Again, this is what happens.

Oil companies do not have to fear ethanol or alternative fuels. They are not evil. They have no collective conscience that decided to "hold down the man" to get his money and crush anyone who does not follow their lead. Sorry, it does not work that way.

I'm not telling you that you should not run ethanol if you like! Go ahead and enjoy the improved performance. I wish you much success and enjoyment in this pursuit (no sarcasm implied at all). Ethanol is a known quantity. it's production is known and has been known for eons. The reason it has not taken off is because there are other, more viable alternatives that pose far fewer challenges. Mainly, that is gasoline.

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Old 11-20-2013, 10:45 PM
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Got to side with 68gtoMN on this one. Could have had an alternative fuel discussion without the Berkeleycrat Videos. The carbon credit markets have crashed. Man made global warming is a hokes designed to levy more tax and re-distribute wealth on a global scale. The federal government makes twice what the oil companies makes per gallon by tax, and does not lift a finger to bring it to the pump. In fact creates obstacles.

I'm out of here.

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Old 11-20-2013, 11:34 PM
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I think we are going down the wrong path with the politics side of things here, my intent was to show some facts about e85 as a race/performance fuel - not to say the world will end if we don't switch to it in our passenger cars or replace all petroleum based fuels with ethanol. As I said in the beginning - I am not a tree hugger. I am sure that the oil industry has their own share of false propaganda too. Neither is saying the whole truth I am sure and the truth does lie somewhere in-between. But as you might have noticed this topic was placed in the race section.
BTW - there was a 50 cent a gallon tax credit for e85 but was lifted almost two years ago.....not saying there aren’t other though..

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Old 11-20-2013, 11:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WARPed View Post
I think we are going down the wrong path with the politics side of things here, my intent was to show some facts about e85 as a race/performance fuel - not to say the world will end if we don't switch to it in our passenger cars or replace all petroleum based fuels with ethanol. As I said in the beginning - I am not a tree hugger. I am sure that the oil industry has their own share of false propaganda too. Neither is saying the whole truth I am sure and the truth does lie somewhere in-between. But as you might have noticed this topic was placed in the race section.
BTW - there was a 50 cent a gallon tax credit for e85 but was lifted almost two years ago.....not saying there aren’t other though..
Hey Warped, nothing I posted was meant as derogatory toward you or was meant to belittle the potential advantages of e85 as racing fuel. Clearly there are reasons why this is a great choice in this regard. I support your use of this fuel and wish you much success in using it!

I don't know that I learned anything from this video about "myths" that were supposedly busted. I mainly heard propaganda for ethanol and against oil from a man who is an author/activist and entrepreneur (don't lose sight of that point) and not a scientist.

I recognize that you don't support the "tree hugger claims", as you stated, etc. This guy, sadly, does not make a compelling case scientifically for what he claims. Dissecting his first video of 27 minutes, he talks about Saab's failed variable combustion chamber tech, a supposed new 400 HP alcohol only sports car, the diesel engine, American Petroleum Institute conspiracies and hardly delves into what his point is. He's a distraction artist. And Saabs variable engine failed, the sports car never materialized, Saab is gone... History does not support him or his arguments and he has no "credentials" to support them either.

You were looking for support and urging others to view these videos. I did. I am not impressed nor persuaded of anything other than gasoline is far better everyday fuel compared to alcohol. Alcohol mixed with gasoline can provide benefits at the race track. No politics injected by me.

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  #39  
Old 11-21-2013, 12:26 AM
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im with 68gtoMN all the way.. I'm all for any fuel that racers want to use as race fuel is a drop in the bucket. being in the midwest I see first hand how ethanol fuel helps farmers. As long as you're a corn farmer!! It hurts all other farmers as they have to buy corn at elevated prices as silage. putting our food in our gas tanks drives up the the price of our food. do you like the price of beef milk and eggs these days? corn prices are up because we're burning it in our tanks. I can't get gas here without corn in it here!. It takes a gallon of oil to produce a gallon of ethenol. we're not 'creating' fuel or burning less oil by using corn to fuel our vehicles.
back on subject, I'll put e85 in my race car if it makes sense for my race car, but your race car it a very different subject than what the masses burn.

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Old 11-21-2013, 01:28 AM
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We wouldn't be having this discussion if ethanol production was not highly subsidized by the government. If it really did offer a net positive for our environment, worked better than gasoline as a fuel, cost less to produce than gasoline, there would be no need to subsidize production--People would be clamoring for ethanol.

Instead, most of us with old cars are careful to find stations that have "NO ETHANOL" signs on their drive or pumps.

There have been an increasing number of articles written dispelling the myths about how great ethanol is for our environment. The only reason it's still being used in our fuel supply is that the federal government has not changed its position on forcing ethanol use. Once the government admits ethanol subsidies have been a mistake, it will quietly disappear as a motor fuel. This will be accomplished when there is a major change in the makeup of our government---hopefully beginning in 2014.

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