[Uncle Judge]

It was extremely common for people to paint their 70 and 71 Judge spoilers black back in the day. Especially on white cars.
Many would even change the stripe colors to yellow, red, and black like the popular 1970 white WT7 Judge ad.
I owned two white Judges just like that. A 70 RAIV and a 71.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[The Mechanic]

Originally Posted by Uncle Judge

It was extremely common for people to paint their 70 and 71 Judge spoilers black back in the day. Especially on white cars.
Many would even change the stripe colors to yellow, red, and black like the popular 1970 white WT7 Judge ad.
I owned two white Judges just like that. A 70 RAIV and a 71.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is what I think as well but I want to be 100% sure before I paint it white again. Don might know more, maybe he even painted it?

[Held for Ransom]

Thanks for the build sheet. Interesting notation on the bottom. Looks to be a Judge w/Blue stripes, so probably not a WT7.

Hard to believe it became a company car (per PHS).

[johnta1]

The notation at the bottom of the buildsheet I wonder if meant the body was set aside for some reason while being built?
Possibly some damage or even waiting on parts?
(RA IV engine?)

[Ram4king]

Originally Posted by The Mechanic

That is what I think as well but I want to be 100% sure before I paint it white again. Don might know more, maybe he even painted it?

I painted the wing black out of a spray can so it would look better because I knew I was going to sell it.

[Ram Air IV Jack]

Originally Posted by Uncle Judge

It was extremely common for people to paint their 70 and 71 Judge spoilers black back in the day. Especially on white cars.
Many would even change the stripe colors to yellow, red, and black like the popular 1970 white WT7 Judge ad.
I owned two white Judges just like that. A 70 RAIV and a 71.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup remember that 70 RAIV Judge well Jeff and the original red interior. Mally's Mobil proudly had that on display in the early 70's but the kid that drove it was a real numb head! BTW did you ever pick up the 69 dash pad from Dean?? He told me you wanted it for a few bucks. I told Dean to hold out for more money. Dean said you know it!!!

[The Mechanic]

Originally Posted by Ram4king

I painted the wing black out of a spray can so it would look better because I knew I was going to sell it.

Mystery solved. I wonder why Jack never painted it back during resto. Must have liked it a lot.

[OVERULD]

Code 253 was just called Brown. Saddle was code 255.

TUGTOPS is a great source for photos. Here is a link to a car similar to yours. Don’t see many brown interiors. This one has the black spoiler as well.

http://ultimategto.com/cgi-bin/showc...970/70_00282_1

BJ

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Congrats on your new Judge.
That is a very righteous car.

The previous owner's son is a member of this Forum.
The owner may have been also.
They owned it for quite a while.
I researched the paper trails for them about 1 year ago on this car.

They basically had the same questions as you :
WT-7 ?
PMD or Zone Use ?


Under box 67 - where it says PNT STR - "E'' is the code for Blue Stripes.
As HFR pointed to.
Eliminates WT-7 , although that would have been the best overall look with the Brown interior, in my opinion.

And also as HFR pointed to -
PHS jumped the gun calling it a Zone Use / Company Use car.
Paper trail doesn't support it --- especially without Invoice #3
It would have been reverse procedure from norm ... but still an outside possibility - in all fairness.
A possibility doesn't make it a fact though.
So we can only speculate what happened with car after PMD got it back.

Invoice #2 language and codes show it as only going into Zone Inventory, as Inventory.

From that point a 3rd Invoice would come next.
Either charged to a PMD Department or Zone for Company Use,
Or to another Dealer.
IF it were selected/pulled from Inventory as a Company/Zone Use vehicle - then an eventual 4th Invoice would get generated when it eventually sold to a Dealer at discount.


Its an odd trail no matter what.
Larger gap than normal between proposed production date on Buildsheet and Invoice #1 date.
Along with storage insert notation on Bsheet.
Have a few other various Bsheets with the same notation -- there can be multiple definitions and circumstances for that term.
So that is basically something that has to be pieced into the puzzle and try to find a best fit.
AKA involves more speculation

This was a very pricey performance specialty car with unique option content and color combination.
Not something a dealer would casually order for inventory.

Definitely a special order, that would have required a buyers deposit.
But i think something definitely went wrong with the original buyer.
Maybe he was drafted to Vietnam or fell upon some type of immense hardship.

Two things we can say for sure :
1. The original buyer/purchaser didn't follow through.
2. PMD got the car back from Hayes within 60 days , still as a new car.
Thats It


The hand written notation on Invoice #1 , along with the other notations and date factors - i formed an opinion on the puzzle, at least up to the point of Invoice #2.
But its only more speculation, one of several possibilities.
Probably not worth cluttering up web space with it - or the potential conjectures.

Its really a deal where everyone can form their own hypothesis.
None can be proven.
so ..... another dead end road


Brown is a seldom seen interior color on any 70 GTO, particularly seldom on a Judge.

#'s matching drivetrain RamIV 4spd Judge is a very high attribute.
It looked like perhaps still factory paint and decals in 1999'ish when Don owned it.

[Ram4king]

The only thing that doesn't jive is that I spoke to the original owners son when I owned it. He confirmed to me his father bought the car at Hayes. It stayed in that area until a local body shop owner bought it and was going to do a frame off restoration on it but lost interest in it as it sat in storage for 10 yrs or more. Also it was not original paint when I had it. It had some rust repair done to it and the body shop was going to replace all the sheetmetal. The pictures of that tag on the back is the original one from 1970..

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

That would be another wild twist if Hayes still wound up finally being the selling dealer of the car - after it was sent to the zone inventory lot.
Could have its possibilities

Would be super wild if Protect-o-Plate still existed and listed Hayes with a later sale date than Invoice #2 .

PHS Invoices have always been pretty solid data in the past.

[The Mechanic]

BVZ, thank you very much. I appreciate the info, truly.
Quite an interesting history with the car, very confusing but interesting. I agree, the number and oddity of the options would probably lead one to believe it was customer ordered, or maybe Pontiac ordered? Someone had mentioned it could have been ordered that way to show other dealerships what certain options looked like, a sales example? It going to Hayes first doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. Just more speculation I suppose. I just think it is worth considering that RA IV on a Judge was a somewhat strange thing to do in 70 to begin with, not your everyday buyer would do something like that. Adding on to it a lot of options including some strange ones says something in and of itself.

Hey Don, are you saying the plate is the original one in that photo?
The last owners are good guys, we've been talking about the car and they say similar things about the past ownership of the it, I think you may have been in contact with them in the past. Do you know the name of the original owner?

[scott70]

Very cool car,,,,great story !! So there must be a difference in color between dark saddle and brown? The saddle interior cars came with alot of contrasting dark saddle pieces,,,dashboard,kick boards,carpet,carpet on the bottom of door panel,trim around rear window. Odd they would have dark saddle and brown so close together in color.

[The Mechanic]

Originally Posted by scott70

Very cool car,,,,great story !! So there must be a difference in color between dark saddle and brown? The saddle interior cars came with alot of contrasting dark saddle pieces,,,dashboard,kick boards,carpet,carpet on the bottom of door panel,trim around rear window. Odd they would have dark saddle and brown so close together in color.

Thanks Scott. The book doesn't show dark saddle as an option, only brown or saddle. The reason I added the verbiage of dark saddle was because if you search around on the internet for interior code 253 or 53 there are a lot of places that don't refer to it as brown, they call it dark saddle. I'm not sure where this term came from when the book clearly says brown. Maybe there was another year Pontiac used the same brown but called it dark saddle?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

It going to Hayes first doesn't make a whole lot of sense though. Just more speculation I suppose.

Only for clarification purposes - the very last thing in this saga i would cast any doubt on or call speculation - are the PMD / PHS Invoices.

The options seem more hand-picked eclectic to me, than showcase.
Especially the interior color choice.
If the buyer failed, i can see Hayes wanting or needing to bail out of it.

It could be worth contacting Jim Maddison at PHS to see if he could comb the archives again for the 3rd Invoice. I don't remember if the previous owners tried doing that or not. But i'm sure i would have suggested it to them after reviewing the paper trail.


Cars used first by PMD for any purpose and then later sold to dealers are always discounted. Invoice #1 to Hayes is straight up full price.
Dealers had to pay for these cars to get them.

[The Mechanic]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Only for clarification purposes - the very last thing in this saga i would cast any doubt on or call speculation - are the PMD / PHS Invoices.

The options seem more hand-picked eclectic to me, than showcase.
Especially the interior color choice.
If the buyer failed, i can see Hayes wanting or needing to bail out of it.

It could be worth contacting Jim Maddison at PHS to see if he could comb the archives again for the 3rd Invoice. I don't remember if the previous owners tried doing that or not. But i'm sure i would have suggested it to them after reviewing the paper trail.


Cars used first by PMD for any purpose and then later sold to dealers are always discounted. Invoice #1 to Hayes is straight up full price.
Dealers had to pay for these cars to get them.

You're right, we're on the same page. I only mean speculation on the "why" of it all. PHS is the best resource these cars have, many other brands don't have that. I'll see if Jim can take a look, it's been a while since these docs were pulled, who knows what can happen in a decade or two.

[Uncle Judge]

Originally Posted by scott70

Very cool car,,,,great story !! So there must be a difference in color between dark saddle and brown? The saddle interior cars came with alot of contrasting dark saddle pieces,,,dashboard,kick boards,carpet,carpet on the bottom of door panel,trim around rear window. Odd they would have dark saddle and brown so close together in color.

The Brown and Saddle are significantly different in 1970. That Saddle was lighter and kind of a modeled color. The reproduction is not accurate either.

The confusion is likely due to the 1971 Saddle color which is much darker and more like the brown in 1970.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

we're on the same page

Thanks for clarifying that , i wasn't completely sure where that was pointed.

It would certainly be a Cinderella Story if Hayes did actually wind up being the eventual selling dealer from zone inventory.
That is indeed one possibility.
Any dealer could have pulled it , including Hayes.

Its even possible the original ordering buyer got back in position a couple months later and made the purchase. Now that is -very high speculation- but stranger things probably have happened in the car business once or twice.


Could you give us the body build date from the cowl tag when you have a chance, to help others who might be inquisitive. Would have to comb back through a lot of emails to find it in my archives.

It's been an interesting saga to me from the start.
Don's info makes it even a bit more suspenseful and melodramatic.

A lot of these multi-invoice cars are missing one or more invoices , WE don't know if they are actually completely missing - or if Jim just can't locate them within the archives. We just know it happens and it has left a lot of interesting multi-invoice cars with unknowns that the owners would love to be able to determine.
We are lucky for what we have and what we get, so we can't gripe.

If invoice #2 for your car had not surfaced - no one would have ever given it another thought beyond a typical order a car/sell a car scenario.

[scott70]

Originally Posted by Uncle Judge

The Brown and Saddle are significantly different in 1970. That Saddle was lighter and kind of a modeled color. The reproduction is not accurate either.

The confusion is likely due to the 1971 Saddle color which is much darker and more like the brown in 1970.

Yes as far as optional interior colors you had saddle,sandalwood,red,etc. but in 70 the pieces I mentioned like kick boards,some moldings were dark saddle(pontiac called it dark saddle) with the saddle interior and thats what they called it. Im assuming the "brown" interior color was a different color than the dark saddle that some trim pieces came in. Yes there was no dark saddle option as far as seats and door panels. Ive never put my dark saddle pieces next to a "brown" interior seat. So if you ordered a brown interior Im assuming you would get brown kickboards? I wonder what the shade difference is,if any at all between dark saddle and brown. My car came with 255 saddle interior but with dark saddle pieces mentioned earlier. Funny on the color chart that was shown earlier the saddle 255 wasnt on the list combined with k -code mint turquoise exterior..

[The Mechanic]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Could you give us the body build date from the cowl tag when you have a chance, to help others who might be inquisitive. Would have to comb back through a lot of emails to find it in my archives.

Here is the body tag, sorry about the clarity, it's the only picture I have until 'm back by the car.