[Springo]

You know, when the starter gets hot and dosen't want to crank over? Mine started doing it today, it always started though.

Today is a fairly hot day compared to what we have been getting lately. I drove home from work and dropped a co-worker off in the next town, that was about a 40 mile drive. Then I went around looking for garage sales for a couple of hours. I had the A/C cranked and was parking the car a lot to look at the sales, so I was using the starter a lot compared to normal. Then I went to the store and was in there for about five minutes - and when I came out and went to start it, the starter didn't really want to turn the motor over, but it did. I tried it several more times on the way to my house, turning the car off and then re-starting it; and it still did it, sometimes it was worse than other times, but it always caught and fired up.

The car was not overheating or boiling over or anything like that, even with the A/C cranked. Just the starter issue. I know that a lot of Chevrolets from the 70's have the problem, but I don't know about Grand Prixs.

I am hoping that it is a starter issue, because a car in need of a valve job, and possibly a whole rebuild on the motor will exhibit the same symptoms, ie. hard starting when hot.

The GP had not done this to me in the past couple of weeks of driving around, but it also has not been hot and I haven't been stopping/starting the car twenty times in a couple of hours of garage sale hunting and using the A/C as well. I have been driving the car all over the place to test its reliability and get the cobwebs out of the motor, which had been sitting for a long while, not years, but several months.

One thing to note, and I don't know how much this affects anything, is that the car originally came from the factory with a high-altitude emissions package. When the owners moved to California, they said that they had the carb re-jetted for the lower elevation. Now the car is back in Colorado at a 5,100 foot elevation. I do not know if this has any bearing on the starting - also if it has any bearing on the idle (which is getting smoother but still not glass smooth like those motors can be. However the owner thinks that he might have put a mild cam in when the motor was rebuilt but he really can't remember.

Actually I am not sure what the jet issue would do, I have moved all over the country with carbureted vehicles and never changed jets, or had any problems with altitude other than a loss of power due to the thin air. Maybe that is what the jet change is for? If anybody can shed light on the jet issue, I'd like to know. But anyway -

The car was idling rough and stalling on the first day or two that I drove it. I popped the hood and checked the distributor cap and rotor because that's usually a good indicator of whether the car has been maintained or not. If the contacts are all corroded and worn, then the car probably has never been well maintained. But these looked fine, and the seller said that the plugs are relatively new and should still be good, so I didn't pull any. I started the car and adjusted the air/fuel mixture, idle speed, and timing - all by ear. I got it running better and it didn't stall anymore. Now, it's starting on it's third full tank of premium gas and I have been running good quality fuel system cleaners such as SeaFoam in the first tank, Greased Lightning in the second, and Lucas in the third. Just to test them out... Anyway it's idling pretty nicely now and not stalling anymore.

Long story, I know, Springo is a windbag. But I also know that in order for people to diagnose something properly, all of the facts and recent history must be known.

So back to the starter issue, I think that it is the classic heat soak, but I don't know if GP's suffer from it - although I don't see why they would be any different from a Chevy Monte Carlo, for example. The starters etc. are all basically the same.

I have not gone out and tried to start it yet, after I came home. I want it to cool off. If it starts eaily after it cools down, then it could be the starter; but it still could be a valve/head issue.

If the GP's and their starters suffer from this problem, at least I know how to fix it. I will change out the starter for a high torque gear reduction type; add a heat shield to it; upgrade the battery cables ro the thickest gauge; and upgrade the battery if necessary to something with about 1,000 CCA's. I think that this should take care of the problem for good, if it is the starter. What do you all think of that? Sounds like a plan? I like to upgrade my vehicle's starting and charging system anyway - so along with all that, a high output alternator gets put on.

A final thought - I do believe this to be a starter issue and not a valvetrain issue, because if it was the valves, simply getting the motor to operating temperature is enough to cause the problem, and it will react the same way every time. But this only happened when the outside air was hot and the starter was being used a lot because of the stop and go garage sale hunt.

As usual any and all opinions will be welcomed and considered. Thanx!

[Springo]

You know, when the starter gets hot and dosen't want to crank over? Mine started doing it today, it always started though.

Today is a fairly hot day compared to what we have been getting lately. I drove home from work and dropped a co-worker off in the next town, that was about a 40 mile drive. Then I went around looking for garage sales for a couple of hours. I had the A/C cranked and was parking the car a lot to look at the sales, so I was using the starter a lot compared to normal. Then I went to the store and was in there for about five minutes - and when I came out and went to start it, the starter didn't really want to turn the motor over, but it did. I tried it several more times on the way to my house, turning the car off and then re-starting it; and it still did it, sometimes it was worse than other times, but it always caught and fired up.

The car was not overheating or boiling over or anything like that, even with the A/C cranked. Just the starter issue. I know that a lot of Chevrolets from the 70's have the problem, but I don't know about Grand Prixs.

I am hoping that it is a starter issue, because a car in need of a valve job, and possibly a whole rebuild on the motor will exhibit the same symptoms, ie. hard starting when hot.

The GP had not done this to me in the past couple of weeks of driving around, but it also has not been hot and I haven't been stopping/starting the car twenty times in a couple of hours of garage sale hunting and using the A/C as well. I have been driving the car all over the place to test its reliability and get the cobwebs out of the motor, which had been sitting for a long while, not years, but several months.

One thing to note, and I don't know how much this affects anything, is that the car originally came from the factory with a high-altitude emissions package. When the owners moved to California, they said that they had the carb re-jetted for the lower elevation. Now the car is back in Colorado at a 5,100 foot elevation. I do not know if this has any bearing on the starting - also if it has any bearing on the idle (which is getting smoother but still not glass smooth like those motors can be. However the owner thinks that he might have put a mild cam in when the motor was rebuilt but he really can't remember.

Actually I am not sure what the jet issue would do, I have moved all over the country with carbureted vehicles and never changed jets, or had any problems with altitude other than a loss of power due to the thin air. Maybe that is what the jet change is for? If anybody can shed light on the jet issue, I'd like to know. But anyway -

The car was idling rough and stalling on the first day or two that I drove it. I popped the hood and checked the distributor cap and rotor because that's usually a good indicator of whether the car has been maintained or not. If the contacts are all corroded and worn, then the car probably has never been well maintained. But these looked fine, and the seller said that the plugs are relatively new and should still be good, so I didn't pull any. I started the car and adjusted the air/fuel mixture, idle speed, and timing - all by ear. I got it running better and it didn't stall anymore. Now, it's starting on it's third full tank of premium gas and I have been running good quality fuel system cleaners such as SeaFoam in the first tank, Greased Lightning in the second, and Lucas in the third. Just to test them out... Anyway it's idling pretty nicely now and not stalling anymore.

Long story, I know, Springo is a windbag. But I also know that in order for people to diagnose something properly, all of the facts and recent history must be known.

So back to the starter issue, I think that it is the classic heat soak, but I don't know if GP's suffer from it - although I don't see why they would be any different from a Chevy Monte Carlo, for example. The starters etc. are all basically the same.

I have not gone out and tried to start it yet, after I came home. I want it to cool off. If it starts eaily after it cools down, then it could be the starter; but it still could be a valve/head issue.

If the GP's and their starters suffer from this problem, at least I know how to fix it. I will change out the starter for a high torque gear reduction type; add a heat shield to it; upgrade the battery cables ro the thickest gauge; and upgrade the battery if necessary to something with about 1,000 CCA's. I think that this should take care of the problem for good, if it is the starter. What do you all think of that? Sounds like a plan? I like to upgrade my vehicle's starting and charging system anyway - so along with all that, a high output alternator gets put on.

A final thought - I do believe this to be a starter issue and not a valvetrain issue, because if it was the valves, simply getting the motor to operating temperature is enough to cause the problem, and it will react the same way every time. But this only happened when the outside air was hot and the starter was being used a lot because of the stop and go garage sale hunt.

As usual any and all opinions will be welcomed and considered. Thanx!

[cat tracker]

An easy way to tell is to take a large squirt bottle filled with water. Drive you car around in the heat and kill the engine. If it won't start,squirt water on the starter and solenoid until it cools down. If it still doesn't start it isn't a "heat soak problem". Then I guess you can squirt yourself till the tow truck arrives. - Dwight Sr.

[monzaz]

Here is something else to check-
The gas in the carb could be boiling too. If you float level is right on the gas on a very hot day will expand and when the car shuts down it will still flow when the car is turned off through the booster nozzels into the intake and pistons creating a hyperlock. Try this the next time it happens and see if it will over come the problem... turn the key and stab the pedel to the floor the rush of fresh are just might flush the cylinder for that split second and the starter can over come the hyperlock. Likr you do on a flooded engine. See if that helps. If it does lower the float just a bit. like a 1/ 16 or a 32 . Good luck. Jim

[thepontiacman]

If it ends up being a starter not engaging problem, here are things to fix it.

GM heavy duty " heat soak" solenoid sspring, a solenoid shield or maybe a starter and solenoid shield, a high amp battery. Make sure you have a good high torque starter.

Sounds like there may be other problems with your GP but the above is steps to prevent the starting problem due to solenoid getting too hot.

Good Luck.

thepontiacman@yahoo.com

[mike nixon]

yes the g/p's suffer from heat soak, at least every one i've ever owned has.

the worst was the 81 with the w30 455 olds.

what has fixed mine was a good 1k amp battery, not the walmart ones, and a set of 0 or 1 guage cables.

headers aggrivate the issue and i'd recommend wrapping the starter or fabbing a good heat sheild up if you run them.


you may also want to check the timing settings. normally i run the vac adv off of ported vac [ if a port is available] and bump the initial a couple degrees.

with a hot start problem you may end up retarding it a few degrees depending on the cam grind used.

i'd check the base setings regardless and be sure the mechanical advance is not stuck in the advanced position.


re the jetting, it's my understanding that high alt applications run a bit richer jetting to compensate for the poor air quality. being a flat-lander i've only ran into a few situations where this was done and both of them were so cobbed up by the time i got involved that i couldn't honestly tell you if the jetting made a diff or not.

mike