[aceaceca]

I purchased the Summit True Roller set and then decided to get the Comp Cams one. They were identical sets. Still have the Summit one.

[i82much]

i just hope i drive my car enough to wear out some of my aftermarket chinese junk!

[Half-Inch Stud]

No Timing Chain, gears, oil oump spare stash anymore. Tossed due to the best parts being in my running engine and...

I decided to buy these NEW for once. You know, treat myself to some non-hobo quality.

Spare engine gonna stay un-assembled awhile,

[glhs#116]

Yeah.. Crap. I ordered the Cloyes because it said it had a steel upper gear and the picture on Summit looks great with billet looking gears.

It arrived and they seem to be the soft cast iron gears like in my previous Melling set. The chain is a little hard to tell. It's got no markings. Guess I will just suck it and see.

It's annoying that you can't spend money on a quality link chain. Once you do the research you will never pay money again for bicycle chains. Biggest aftermarket scam ever. But the only "quality" sets you can buy are in that bicycle chain style. And, fundamentally, it's an inferior design. More vibration, more stress on bearings, more load, less strength..

Sam

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by glhs#116

Yeah.. Crap. I ordered the Cloyes because it said it had a steel upper gear and the picture on Summit looks great with billet looking gears.

It arrived and they seem to be the soft cast iron gears like in my previous Melling set. The chain is a little hard to tell. It's got no markings. Guess I will just suck it and see.

It's annoying that you can't spend money on a quality link chain. Once you do the research you will never pay money again for bicycle chains. Biggest aftermarket scam ever. But the only "quality" sets you can buy are in that bicycle chain style. And, fundamentally, it's an inferior design. More vibration, more stress on bearings, more load, less strength..

Sam

This may provide some help. Secondary vendors like Summit, Jegs, even E-bay and Amazon, write their own descriptions and advertisements to lure potential buyers. Of course, these descriptions are "based" on information from the manufacturers. Problem is, the secondary vendors descriptions are often written by kids with great computer skills who don't know a main bearing from a lug nut. So you get partially correct information. In the case of Cloyes, they have probably the widest coverage of timing components for our Pontiac engines of anyone. From super budget, OE replacement stuff, to entry level roller chains to premium roller chain sets with cast gears to ultra strong roller chains with billet gears and 9 keyways. Each set will cost more as you move up the ladder. Typically, mass marketers will not carry and sell the best components available because of cost and they know their customers are always looking for the killer deal. The best way to assure you are getting the premium parts is to go to the manufacturers web site, find the part numbers you want, and then shop for them. This goes for almost every performance part. The brand name alone means little. Everybody sells multiple lines of most parts to compete with the Chinese crap and keep the door open. It's the new normal. Cheap crap from the typical walk-in parts stores is no better than white box Chinese junk from the internet. The only advantage is it's available now. None of it will last a year. This includes timing sets.

[Shiny]

Good advice but not sure the Cloyes web site makes it easy to choose quality.

They have "Stock Replacement" and "Performance" categories.

When I search under Stock Replacement, they show 2 options:

C-3007K Original Style

DESCRIPTION
Sprockets Are Made From High Alloy Steel, And Heat-Treated For Durability. Chain Is Pre-Stressed And Heat-Treated For Longevity.

Meets or Exceeds Original Equipment Manufacture Specifications: Yes
Universal Or Specific Fit: Specific

C-3043 Roller Style

DESCRIPTION
Sprockets Are Made From High Alloy Steel, And Heat-Treated For Durability. Chain Is Pre-Stressed And Heat-Treated For Longevity.

Meets or Exceeds Original Equipment Manufacture Specifications: Yes
Universal Or Specific Fit: Specific

I expect the roller style to be stronger and more durable than the OEM set by reading their description.

I get the impression from this thread they are both made of peanut butter and will fail in a year, yet both are listed as heat-treated alloy steel and "meet or exceed" Pontiac's specs.

Tough crowd on this forum sometimes for those of us with a stock engine and forced to spend our own money on parts.

Link to Cloyes Part-Finder Result for 70 350

[Cliff R]

If you think a roller chain is stronger take a gander inside a 4 x 4 transfer case and see what type of chain they use in them.......A roller chain in that type of service wouldn't last much longer than it took me to type this.....IMHO......

[dataway]

I think they have different intended uses. The stock style chain is probably stronger, the roller chain lighter and probably has less rolling friction. I never felt the roller chains back in the day were marketed towards people looking for high durability stock replacements, they were geared towards the performance crowd that was probably going to change them every 20,000 miles.

Consider Pontiac saw fit to load our engine with nylon gears originally, I'm sure either one of the current choices would win the longevity contest compared to those original sets.

My problem with roller chains, and I've worked with a ton of them in race bike cam drives and drive trains .... is they stretch ... a lot. And their stretching seems to increase exponentially with the tension they are under.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

If you think a roller chain is stronger take a gander inside a 4 x 4 transfer case and see what type of chain they use in them.......A roller chain in that type of service wouldn't last much longer than it took me to type this.....IMHO......

Quality of the flat link, (link belt) type chain matters as well. Put a Chinese flat chain in a NP241 transfer case and it was slipping links, rattling and scrapping against the case in 6000 miles!! Replaced with Morse chain, ran over 100K more trouble free miles. The finish on the pins, general dimensions, and heat treat all matter. same with any type of chain, any style. IWIS, Renold, Morse, all good chain manufacturers. No name, and Chinese, chains, any style, probably junk like virtually everything they make and sell.

[Shiny]

Seems obvious the silent chain would be stronger from a design perspective IF materials and tolerance control were equal.

My point was Cloyes lists their stock replacement level roller set as "Heavy Duty", leaving interpretation up to the reader...

Cloyes says both are heat treated alloy steel so assuming material strength and hardness are equal, what makes them say the roller is "Heavy Duty"? If, like Dataway suggests, they said "lower loss" it might be more credible.

No way to gauge durability from reading manufacturer's marketing description unless they spell it out. Even better if they provided competitive life test results but nobody can afford that for low volume parts with low profit margins.

Quick look at Melling site shows cast iron. Makes me think Cloyes may be more durable but that is far from a safe assumption. Not enough detail in either manufacturer's descriptions to make an objective comparison of "durability". Even that term is sufficiently vague to be more about the supplier than the consumer.

And back to OP, BorgWarner online info for Morse parts looks like a wealth of information intended to educate and inform.

Net: If I was shopping, I'd ask on the forum and would look for a Morse silent set or hope a hoarder freed Willy the NOS set after I won the lottery...

[Tom Vaught]

I am so happy that I bought spare chains and gear sets for my Pontiac engines years ago so that I do not have to put up with wondering if it is "good enough".

I bought from Paul Spotts. So has anyone run his .005 under factory type chains?

Tom V.

[Cliff R]

I noticed several years ago that the better heat treated metal gears and USA made Morse chains were not showing up in any stock replacement timing sets whether from Melling, Cloyes or Dyna Gear. All pretty much look the same and use a cast iron top sprocket with three cut-outs in it. They may very well all be from the same supplier and just getting re-boxed like a lot of other parts being sold these days. So I'm glad I'm stocked up on the good sets with USA Morse chains and heat treated sprockets as well, they are getting more difficult to find......Cliff.

[Shiny]

LOL

Timing sets have now joined distributor advance springs

[Sun Tuned]

Aw hell naw!!!!

You did not just go there!!!

Well, it’s normal planned obscelesence I guess.
But it sure does seem harder these days for a guy to buy something worth a damn for the money we are laying out.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

I noticed several years ago that the better heat treated metal gears and USA made Morse chains were not showing up in any stock replacement timing sets whether from Melling, Cloyes or Dyna Gear. All pretty much look the same and use a cast iron top sprocket with three cut-outs in it. They may very well all be from the same supplier and just getting re-boxed like a lot of other parts being sold these days. So I'm glad I'm stocked up on the good sets with USA Morse chains and heat treated sprockets as well, they are getting more difficult to find......Cliff.

So, does that mean that the only decent cam sprockets have 10 holes, and all those with 3 slots are total junk, subject to premature failure ?

The chain shown in that 10-hole sprocket set looks just like the chain in my Cloyes set. The Chain shown in Paul Spotts' ad is said to be a Morse chain. That chain looks completely different. So, does that mean Morse makes more than 1 type of chain for the Pontiac replacement timing sets ? Why does the Spotts' set have a Morse chain, while other similar sets show exactly the same sprockets, but a different chain ? The sprockets are sold separately. So, is the Morse chain sold separately ? If so, somebody please post a part number & link, please.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/28370368276...m=283703682763

And, are all chains, other than the Morse brand, total junk & therefore also practically guaranteed for almost immediate massive stretch and/or quick failure ?

Seems like you guys are saying that unless you have a stash of really old NOS engine parts, there is no way you can possibly build a Pontiac engine that will stay together, even for a reasonable length of time.

I sincerely HOPE this idea is at least slightly exaggerated. Otherwise, all us low budget guys, without a big stash of NOS parts, have no hope of expecting even a reasonably reliable Pontiac engine.

As mentioned, back in the '70-'80's, I used the stock replacement TRW brand sets in ALL the Pontiac engines I built. They all had slotted cam sprockets. Never had a cam sprocket with 10 holes in it. Have no idea who made the chain or sprockets. I DO remember that back then everybody said the only decent link belt chains were the old 4-cyl chains, which were no longer available.

Would like to read stories of some recent quick failures of the currently available stock replacement Pontiac timing sets. For those who have such a story, please post all the details of the build, brand, part numbers, & exact details of the failure.

[Holeshot71]

The only roller chains I like/use are the Cloyes 9-3112 sets. They have larger links than most of the roller chains out there. Unfortunately, I believe they have discontinued making them. If you go to the cloyes web site and search that part number you can find a description on it but doesn’t look like it’s available any more.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Holeshot71

The only roller chains I like/use are the Cloyes 9-3112 sets. They have larger links than most of the roller chains out there. Unfortunately, I believe they have discontinued making them. If you go to the cloyes web site and search that part number you can find a description on it but doesn’t look like it’s available any more.

9-3112 Cloyes true roller set available at Jegs and Summit Racing among others. Approx. $125.00. High quality, rugged and reliable. We ran these sets on the Grocery Getter race car for for 16 years. Never a failure. Over 1000 lbs. open spring pressure, 8500 RPM's, just under one inch valve lift, Hundreds and hundreds of runs. We now use the billet sprocket set with the 9 keyways for more adjustment. Even more spring load, higher RPM's, 44 amp magneto, belt driven 43 GPM oil pump, nitro fuel pump and a 14-71 roots blower all pulling on that timing chain. Never a failure. Even when we had a blower explosion, that bent the crankshaft .030", left the blower case in 3 pieces. Even sheared the camshaft key off. Timing set and chain were fine and tight. I just don't know what else you can do to destroy one. I don't think a Chinese set would have fared as well.

[ponyakr]

Just found this TRW TC350 chain. It has Morse stamped on several links. The outer links don't look like the outer links of the Spotts' Morse chain.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/222894837876

So, did Morse change the type of chain they make for use in Pontiac timing sets ?

Most all the pics I can find of the current Sealed Power KT3-350S sets show cam sprockets with holes rather than slots. Does that mean that these sprockets with holes are better than the sprockets with slots ?

https://www.ebay.com/p/76026366?iid=392445008044

Most of the slotted sprockets have SA on 'em. I assume that means they're made by SA gear ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Engine-Timi...wAAOSw1~JZSlAb

https://www.showmetheparts.com/sagear/

[Dragncar]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

9-3112 Cloyes true roller set available at Jegs and Summit Racing among others. Approx. $125.00. High quality, rugged and reliable. We ran these sets on the Grocery Getter race car for for 16 years. Never a failure. Over 1000 lbs. open spring pressure, 8500 RPM's, just under one inch valve lift, Hundreds and hundreds of runs. We now use the billet sprocket set with the 9 keyways for more adjustment. Even more spring load, higher RPM's, 44 amp magneto, belt driven 43 GPM oil pump, nitro fuel pump and a 14-71 roots blower all pulling on that timing chain. Never a failure. Even when we had a blower explosion, that bent the crankshaft .030", left the blower case in 3 pieces. Even sheared the camshaft key off. Timing set and chain were fine and tight. I just don't know what else you can do to destroy one. I don't think a Chinese set would have fared as well.

So what you are saying is that chain is good enough for anything short of a nuclear explosion. Good enough for me.

[TransAm 474]

What about the Cloyes 9-3512X9 Street Billet True Roller set? 82 bucks at Summit, .250" Rollers, Billet cam sprocket, induction hardened Billet Crank sprocket. Any thoughts?