[John V.]

Just flipped thru the (in)famous '64 GTO test article and couple things jumped out for me.

Since the article is in B&W, it was never very obvious to me whether the pix in the article were of the Wangers Red car or the long lost Blue car.

The Red car made a name for itself on the street in Detroit after the testing.

But it was clearly the Blue car that the C&D staffers fell in love with, consequently the one that I always felt was most significant.

C&D put over 3000 miles on the Blue car, much of it by Managing Editor John Jerome when he drove with his wife & 3 kids from NYC to Daytona for the performance testing. The article notes that this car had the 20:1 Quick Ratio manual steering option and metallic brake linings.

The Red car had Power Steering and standard content manual brakes. It also was equipped with the door mounted outside LH mirror option.

A pic on the Contents page shows plate no. HJ-4471, this car lacks an outside mirror option, IMO must be the Blue car. An interior shot on pg. 28 shows pedal trim, indicative of Power Brakes. They aren't noted anywhere else in the article, but power brakes were recommended with the metallic linings. The photo could be a "stock" photo, but if it is either car, it would most likely be the Blue car and optioned with Power Brakes.

That would make the engine shot on pg. 30 the Red car since it shows PS & no power brake booster. The top pic on pg. 27 shows the outside mirror, so has to be the Red car.

The lower pic same page has the HJ-4471 tag, likely the Blue car. The pic of the tail end on pg. 25, same tag, likely the Blue car. The exterior photos on pgs. 28 & 29 are also almost certainly all of the Blue car (I seem to recall it is reportedly John Jerome's wife in those pix).

IMO, everything about the article says to me that the Blue car was the star attraction of the article and test.

Then I turned my attention to the separate article beginning on pg. 70, written by Roger Proulx. The story of how he went drag racing at Jim Wangers invite in a GTO they had "just finished tuning" at Royal. It was October, prior to the testing at Daytona.

Proulx describes the car in pretty good detail and it seems it must be the very same Blue car, 20:1 Quick Ratio manual steering and all.

One thing that has always bugged me about the C&D write-ups, both stories claim the car was equipped with the close ratio 4 spd. The Proulx article specifically mentions it being a Muncie close ratio. But the ratios are wrong for a Muncie close ratio. And the close ratio did not become available in the GTO until well after these cars were built.

So I always have believed the info came from Wangers and he was simply mistaken. And probably his confusion has had something to do with the long held but erroneous belief that the code 9 trans was a close ratio.

That aside, there has always been the debate as whether one or both cars at Daytona were equipped with the 421. A good many years ago, Wangers finally "came clean" and admitted to the 421 in the Red car. But there still has been this gnawing doubt in my mind. If the Blue car was 389 equipped, would C&D have been so blown away by its performance? The Red car Manifest shows that Wangers special ordered 3.23 gears for it (3.55 having been standard content with the Tri-Power option until mid year). Whether it also had a 421 at Daytona is almost immaterial. Given the hoped for match racing against a Ferrari GTO, I have always believed Wangers wanted the 3.23 gears for a higher top end speed. The Blue car's forte with the 3.90 gears would be on the drag strip.

And now contempating the results that Proulx obtained, I wonder if anybody can comment about the likelihood that the Blue car almost certainly had a 421 transplant.

Here are his results from his day at "Vets Ville Dragway" in Toledo:

Practice Runs
14.63@104.65
13.92@106
13.65@108
13.63@109.76

1st heat against a 421/370HP Catalina
13.65@108.56 (the Cat went up in tire smoke did a 14.44@101.11

2nd heat against a '62 Galaxie 406CID, 4.86 rear, etc.
Proulx made all kinds of mistakes, including per Wangers, unlocking the rear when he had to back up and because he didn't spin the tires again, didn't lock it up again (does that make any sense for a cone type locking diff?)
13.71@107.00 (caught napping and beaten by the Ford's 13.64@107.14)

Now maybe I'm nuts, but do those times seem realistic for a '64 389 (on cheater slicks) even for a Royal Bobcat prepped GTO?

At Daytona, they claimed a 12.8@112 on slicks, a best of 13.1@115 on the stock red lines. Those were unbelievable enough but variously attributed to quick stopwatches or other uncontrolled factors.

But Proulx obtained his times as an apparent drag racing neophyte at an actual track, not by stopwatch.

Could a '64 GTO be that quick with same set-up and a 389? Or should Proulx times have made it obvious the Blue car was 421 powered?

[Tenney]

Wasn't there in Daytona, and so only know what I've been told and think we've traded posts on same? Haven't heard anything different since.

Though I did ask Mr. Wangers if the smoke was an indication that the red car was blowing the motor in the p.27 pic (can see the power antenna, too), and he said that was tire smoke during the acceleration runs conducted on the Daytona straightaway.

He also added that it blew up on the road course after the timed sessions were complete.

Scott and I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Davis (Jr.) in Virginia last year. He told us the red car was the acceleration car, had axle tramp and was "the fiddle".

Roger Proulx was a writer at McManus, who also penned "There's a Tiger loose in the streets." A pretty cool headline from the era.

[Old Man Taylor]

The red car (now Tenney's) had a 421, but I don't believe the blue car did. It was not unusual to see '64 GTO's with the Bobcat treatment running mid 13's at over 105. I know from first hand experience as I had to race against a few of them at the drag strip when my car was new. With some massaging I got my 389 down to 13.05 at about 105. I got my 400 down to 12.65 at 109 with a "744" cam and the HO exhaust manifolds.

[Keith Seymore]

By the end of the season we had our 389 powered '64 GTO running 12.90s in full race trim (slicks and headers). Our tow car, a '64 Lemans with a 421, was reportedly "quicker than the race car"


I would agree with OMT's assessment of 13.50's for a "Bobcatted" street/strip equipped 389 car, which would make 13.60s/13.70s for a "novice" driver about right.

Any underhood/engine shots of the blue car? I'll bet there are several of us here that could distinguish between a 389 and 421 given the correct photo.

K

[Keith Seymore]

And - John - I appreciate the insights on which car might be which in the photos.

I have a project cookin' and need to distinguish between the red car and the blue car; your notes may prove to be helpful.

K

[John V.]

Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.

Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.

What is meant by "the fiddle"?

Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.

Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.

Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.

You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.

Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?

Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?

I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?

And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?

Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point?

[Old Man Taylor]

My car was bone stock, and at a good track it ran 13.90 at 101.12. I had 5" cheater slicks that would go 20,000 miles on the street, and I installed "cut outs". That was with an M-20 and 3.23 gears. I had one time slip for 13.70, but I'm not sure I believe it was correct. I was not in a position to modify the car as it was my family car and work transportation.

[John V.]

Jim, how long before you started massaging it? Would be cool, at least for me, to learn about the progression of things while the car was still pretty new (first couple years?), when you did them, and how much they helped. How long did it take to go from 13.90 to 13.05, were you still using it as transportation? Was that all with the 3.23 gears? Did you do the Bobcat mods? Stuff like that. Or did the mods come much later after it was retired from commuter duty?

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by John V.

Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.

Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.

What is meant by "the fiddle"?

Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.

Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.

Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.

You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.

Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?

Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?

I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?

And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?

Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point?

The GTO v. GTO event was fun, John. The day before leaving to attend, I was informed that Bernie Carl's 250 GTO - which I had been told would be participating - was to be replaced by a replica. Tough to do an accurate GTO v. GTO, but the car was a pretty nice copy and the owner a really good fellow. Was told initially we'd do some runs for fun on a neighboring airstrip that never materialized, but we did go on a fun run or two around town. Almost ran out of gas, in fact! All in all a great time, and Jim Wangers was a hit with the Ferrari folks!

I think by "fiddle", David E. meant "ringer", or "cheater", or something not above-board. He made mention of the event in his 08/10 Car and Driver column.

Car and Driver is the only test that featured the red car, I believe. Though there are shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding.

Daytona testing took place December 26th thru 29th, per Mr. Wangers' book.

I'm told the M-20 was replaced with an M-21 in the red car. And that 3.90's were installed at the same time (along w/the 421) - and this is how the car went to Daytona. I don't know why 3.23's were initially specified on the manifest. I'll ask.

Would guess Jim M. has checked for a blue car manifest. Jim W. says it was a pilot car w/no VIN. It was built initially to help sell the GTO program - and care was taken to make sure everything fit just right and was screwed together properly. This was the one he wanted Car and Driver to spend some extended time with.

[geeteeohguy]

GREAT thread!!! Keep the good stuff coming. Yes, I too want to know what it took to make a "new" GTO go from high to low 13's. Very interesting to hear from those who were "there" on day one and doing it!!

[johnta1]

Is this the same red GTO?

GTO vs GTO

Remember the 84 repeat of the GTO VS GTO article?
They couldn't get the Pontiac GTO faster than about 14.x something?
The 389 2bbl could probably do better than that.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Is this the same red GTO?

Yes. Posted some other stuff on it here over the course of time as caretaker, thus far ...

http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...=127913&page=1

[Tom Vaught]

Guys, that's exactly the input I was hoping for.

Tenney, was that the GTO vs. GTO Ferrari event? Is there a write-up on how that turned out? I talked with Keith a bit about attending but I couldn't pull it off. Sounded like it would be fun.

What is meant by "the fiddle"?

Never thought a bobcatted '64 was running 13.50s back in the day. Pretty neat.

Always wondered what became of John Jerome. Seems he left NYC & C&D not long after the testing, divorced his wife in '65, died in 2002 at 69 from lung cancer. Too bad, would be interesting to hear his recollections of the trip to Daytona and the Blue car.

Keith, I'm not aware of any underhood shots of the Blue car, nothing in the C&D article that would help. I think there are shots that show a 421 that appear in other mag articles, but I think these were believed or known to be of the Red car.

You guys have convinced me, if Proulx could run those times with a bobcatted 389, then C&D was blown away by a legit GTO, the Bobcat treatment was not disguised, it was thoroughly described in the article and not considered more than tuning. I misjudged the performance based on the mid & high 14 sec. 1/4 times that seemed to be the norm in other '64 test articles.

Anybody know for sure when the Daytona testing took place?

Tenney, do you have any idea about the trans put in the Red car, why the seemingly incorrect gearset info (non-Muncie) in the article and same reference to a "close ratio trans" in the Proulx article (do you agree he must have driven the Blue car with the manual steering)?

I know I've commented before about the rear axle gearing, but is there any explanation why Wangers specified the 3.23 gears for it in the build order for the Red car?

And any idea what gears it traveled to Daytona with?

Any idea if PHS has ever tried to find the Manifest for the Blue car? Had to have been built very early for Proulx to have raced it in October. Almost certainly built at Pontiac. And how many Nocturne Blue Tri-Power GTOs with the 3.90 axle and all of the other identifed options could there have been up to that point? [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Tenney

The GTO v. GTO event was fun, John. The day before leaving to attend, I was informed that Bernie Carl's 250 GTO - which I had been told would be participating - was to be replaced by a replica. Tough to do an accurate GTO v. GTO, but the car was a pretty nice copy and the owner a really good fellow. Was told initially we'd do some runs for fun on a neighboring airstrip that never materialized, but we did go on a fun run or two around town. Almost ran out of gas, in fact! All in all a great time, and Jim Wangers was a hit with the Ferrari folks!

I think by "fiddle", David E. meant "ringer", or "cheater", or something not above-board. He made mention of the event in his 08/10 Car and Driver column.

Car and Driver is the only test that featured the red car, I believe. Though there are shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding.

Daytona testing took place December 26th thru 29th, per Mr. Wangers' book.

I'm told the M-20 was replaced with an M-21 in the red car. And that 3.90's were installed at the same time (along w/the 421) - and this is how the car went to Daytona. I don't know why 3.23's were initially specified on the manifest. I'll ask.

Would guess Jim M. has checked for a blue car manifest. Jim W. says it was a pilot car w/no VIN. It was built initially to help sell the GTO program - and care was taken to make sure everything fit just right and was screwed together properly. This was the one he wanted Car and Driver to spend some extended time with.

1) My documentation for my 64 GTO also shows a 3.23 gear ratio initially installed BUT a 3.90 gear ratio was in the car when I received it.

2) I believe Jim W when he said the Blue car was a Pilot Car but I have a issue with the No VIN deal. By law, all vehicles produced and on the road (even in 1964) were supposed to have VIN #s, even "test mules".

3) The "Blue Car" was supposedly destroyed in a fire many years ago.
Funny thing is, I have heard "rumors" over the years from very good sources that the car was not destroyed.

4) I was told by one of these "sources" that he knew where the car actually was stored. Insurance Fraud is a serious crime, even today, but how could an insurance company go after a company that went bankrupt and who would really care if the car "re-appeared" at some point. All of the experimental engines were supposed to be destroyed too.

5) Tenney says there are "shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding." Going by that deal, then the "Blue Car" would have had at some point a 421 engine installed. Pictures clearly show the Pyramid at the back of the block on a engine being worked on in that time frame in Cars/PHR magazines. The "source" also told be the "Blue Car" had a 421 engine installed at some point.

You have to take these comments with a grain of salt but the comments were made while I was helping Greg S work on Bill Sherman's (now Tenney's car) with Milt S for drag strip work and the "Sources" were present.

Tom Vaught

[Old Man Taylor]

Originally Posted by John V.

Jim, how long before you started massaging it? Would be cool, at least for me, to learn about the progression of things while the car was still pretty new (first couple years?), when you did them, and how much they helped. How long did it take to go from 13.90 to 13.05, were you still using it as transportation? Was that all with the 3.23 gears? Did you do the Bobcat mods? Stuff like that. Or did the mods come much later after it was retired from commuter duty?

This will take some time to go through all of the details (and try to remember them correctly). I will also mention some of the problems/failures. For the first four or five years I did not do much to the car. It never had the Bobcat package, but later on it probably had something equivalent. I first raced it at San Fernando, which was at about 1000 feet and had bad air and traction. Absolutely bone stock (Red Lines and all), the best I could get was 14.90 at about 96. One day I borrowed a set of cheater slicks and ran 14.34 at about 97. This was the first year I owned the car. In late '64 I moved to the South Bay area of LA and Lions became my home track. The air was much better there, but the starting line was still a challenge with the limited tire I had. That's where the car ran 13.70 at 101.12, but it was typically in the high 13's. It was very inconsistent with the vacuum linkage as there was no "part throttle" to manage traction, but it ran as well as the mechanical linkage when you could get it to hook up. During that era I updated to the mechanical linkage, added an exhaust bypass in front of the mufflers, and I put in slightly larger jets in the tri-power. I never had the heads off, the distributor was not worked on (it had never been removed) and I did not have adjustable lifters. The valve train geometry was also bone stock, and lifters predictably floated at 5600 RPM.

In '68 or '69 I decided to do a valve job, which grew into doing the short block as well. I won't go over all of the gruesome details of that engine, but I made the mistake of believing what was in the hot rod magazines. I "improved" the car to 14.34 at about 95 mph. I later found out that a single pattern cam (Isky 280) was a mistake on a Pontiac, so I bought what I thought was a 744 cam directly from Pontiac. It turned out that they had the wrong cam in the box: it was letter "E" instead of an "H". Even with the upgrade to 3.90 gears, it ran no better than my first failed rebuild. By that time I was fortunate enough to run into a very knowledgeable Pontiac guy. I bored the block 0.040", got a real 744 cam, and did some minor cleanup to the 1968 #16 heads that I used. Real compression was still about 10.5. This was the configuration when it ran 13.05, and I think the MPH was about 105. I forgot to mention that my "hop up" also consisted of adding a Holley 3310 and an Edelbrock EP4B aluminum manifold. I then switched back to a tri-power ('66 version) - with no other changes - and ran 12.90. I'll continue the progression of performance improvements in later posts. One thing I will say is that after my first failed "hop up", I never made another improvement that did not better the performance.

[geeteeohguy]

Thanks for posting, OMT. That's the kind of story I never get tired of reading. I've always been a "history buff"!!

[pfilean]

I've got to jump in here just because of John V's original post mentioning some times reported of 13.1 @115 on red lines. Although in John's usual effort to be factual he does raise some question of the watch accuracy. Uniroyal red lines (if I remember)became "Tiger Paws" and part of a lot of advertising. But mine (out of Pontiac in January of 64) were junk. Any tiger with paws with that little traction would starve. You could burn them all the way through first, most of the way through second, about half way through third and still have some left for fourth. And I had a 4 barrel. I had to go to cheaters to do anything at all. I was probably not the best driver and only occasionally broke into the 14's with a 3.23 4 speed and 4 barrel.

I can believe OMT on 14.9 on redlines as he had a tri power. I don't know if all plants built with Uniroyals or not. There were other manufacturers making red lines. But I remember one Sunday at Dragway 42 west of Akron when this guy with a tripower (and maybe still the 3.55) signed in to race. He prepped by pulling his hubcaps after his buddy and their girl friends got out of the car. He did a single pass in the high 13's on street tires, put on his hubcaps and left. Didn't show up for the second round. Never saw him again. I guess he just had to know.

Don't know what brand of tires he had. Maybe Atlas Bucron. But calling Uniroyal red lines "Tiger Paws" took a lot of balls even for the advertising department.

[Tenney]

Originally Posted by Tenney

I don't know why 3.23's were initially specified on the manifest. I'll ask.

Mr. Wangers' response ...

"...when the "Red Car" was built, it was selected from a group of Sport Coupes already on the Assembly Line, scheduled for Dealer Stock. It was then transferred to the Engineering Garage where the proper equipment was installed."

[b-man]

[Tom Vaught]

I also have a 45B block, Bart. Like Minds

Tom Vaught

[Tenney]

[/QUOTE]

5) Tenney says there are "shots of the blue car in the 03/64 issues of Cars and Popular Hot Rodding." Going by that deal, then the "Blue Car" would have had at some point a 421 engine installed. Pictures clearly show the Pyramid at the back of the block on a engine being worked on in that time frame in Cars/PHR magazines. The "source" also told be the "Blue Car" had a 421 engine installed at some point.


Tom Vaught[/QUOTE]

Unless, Tom, the shots of the blue car were press/publicity stills, and the engine shots are of a different car. I don't have the magazines, though recall it was not a p/s car - which would rule out the red car and, possibly, rule in the blue car. Also, seem to remember the engine as being not too fresh in appearance, with kind of a funky throttle linkage. There was also a shot of the underside of the car with a leaky shock, or something.

Anyone have a copy? Can these pages be located via the Keith decimal system, perhaps?!

Guessing the blue car was #'d somehow, btw. Though, per "Glory Days", it did not have a "production VIN".

Jim says he kept quiet about the 421 all that time because he enjoyed the controversy. I also think he had a great deal of respect for John DeLorean, and knew how to keep a secret (remember those days?!).

Although ...

Once he came clean on the red car, why not own up to the blue one, as well?

I did once ask him if he knew of any other factory-equipped 421 GTO's, and he said he didn't - though would not have been surprised if there were others.