[69SJ4SPEED]

At the Houston Autorama this past Thnaksgiving I saw a very nice 69 Grand Prix SJ with a 4-speed in the Pontiac display. I'm a car collector, and for about 30 years I've been looking for a real nice 69 or 70 4-speed. I've only seen a couple -- and they were too big of projects. After actively haggling with this guy for a couple months -- I bought the car home yesterday for $7,000 less than what he originally wanted.

This car is black/black which happens to be my favorite colors. The paint is a couple years old, the body is straight, and the trunk is rust-free (as is under the car). The carpet and seat covers are new and the dash and console are flawless. The engine is a replacement 428 with low compression heads -- but I got the original block and heads with the car. I left the crank there as it was not repairable.

I drove it home (150 miles) and it runs good -- except the carb bogs badly when you jump on it. Everything works except one power window.

What do you think this car is worth? Even with paying $7,000 less than what he wanted -- I think I still paid a lot. Problem was he wasn't coming down anymore -- and I don't have another 30 years!

[69SJ4SPEED]

At the Houston Autorama this past Thnaksgiving I saw a very nice 69 Grand Prix SJ with a 4-speed in the Pontiac display. I'm a car collector, and for about 30 years I've been looking for a real nice 69 or 70 4-speed. I've only seen a couple -- and they were too big of projects. After actively haggling with this guy for a couple months -- I bought the car home yesterday for $7,000 less than what he originally wanted.

This car is black/black which happens to be my favorite colors. The paint is a couple years old, the body is straight, and the trunk is rust-free (as is under the car). The carpet and seat covers are new and the dash and console are flawless. The engine is a replacement 428 with low compression heads -- but I got the original block and heads with the car. I left the crank there as it was not repairable.

I drove it home (150 miles) and it runs good -- except the carb bogs badly when you jump on it. Everything works except one power window.

What do you think this car is worth? Even with paying $7,000 less than what he wanted -- I think I still paid a lot. Problem was he wasn't coming down anymore -- and I don't have another 30 years!

[72LeMConvt]

HK - Hoo Kares.

I'm not meaning to be flip, but if you've been looking for 30 years, and it's black on black (your favorites) and it runs good and most everything works, and body is pretty rust free, and you haggled him down 7K, I think you're worrying about a non-issue.

Unless, of course, you haggled him down from an original asking price of $107,000. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Enjoy the car!!

Kirk

[69SJ4SPEED]

I still care. Yes, I spent 30 years looking for this car, and yes I paid what I had to as I might not ever have another opportunity. No I don't want to sell the car and make a profit -- so paying what it was worth to me is OK.

But, I'm still interested in what the market value of this car is. It's OK to pay too much the first time -- but what if I'm ever at an auction and see another one of these, and want it. It's not OK to pay too much the second time.

I'd rather have the information than ignore it. Since I've never been able to get that information elsewhere I decided to ask here.

[Keith Vrabec]

What's it worth? Good question. A few factors play into the equation. Aside from the obvious current condition, which appears quite nice, you must consider originality especially with a rare car like a manual trans GP.

I assume it's an original stick car, which should be confirmed by Pontiac Historic Services. Stick 69-71 GP's are easy to fake, and I've come across more than a few "factory original 72 GP manual transmission" cars...Sorry guy, no such beast.....

As for the engine, if an HO 390 hp or base 370, the difference would be about $1000-$2000 more for an HO. Provided that all the stuff was there.

Problem with a Grand Prix is...well...it's a GP. Not a slam on the car, I own 4 69s and a 72SSJ, and Dad has 4 more SSJs....By far the 69-72 GP is my favorite car...They just are not and never will be worth what GTOs and TAs are worth. Super rare GPs would top out where base GTOs and TAs are in price. I wish my HO 4 speed GP would be worth the equivalent in GTO rarity, a Judge convert, but we're comparing apples and oranges. Apples lose....

I'd place my restored 1.5 HO car to about $17500 if I had to sell it. But it won't leave my garage for 10X that price.

I paid $7K for my HO 4 speed driver a few years ago, which I though was high, but I wanted the car. If you paid under $10000 for the black car, you did OK. But then again, if you wanted it and had the money so what if you paid $20000?

If I were you, I'd do what the guys said about putting better heads on it and start enjoying the car. Ultimately, price just doesn't matter when you blow the doors off a new Mustang, Bird or rice-rod with a big old boat that people have no idea what the car is....Then you can park at K Mart without worry...Try THAT with a Judge....

Granted this is just my opinion. Only thing that would make me qualify as a person with maybe a valid opinion is that fact that I've owned GPs since 1978 and have been following the market on manual trans GPs since then. Mind you, I said MAYBE.

Hope this helps.

Keith

[69SJ4SPEED]

Keith--

I sent away to PHS last Monday. Should have the answer any day now. I don't think it's counterfeit as the build sheet (I don't know how to read the codes and its in rough shape) was in the glove box. Wouldn't have been real smart -- but you never know.

I don't think it was an HO. Wouldn't it have some kind of badging to that effect?

Have photos of it at http://www.thecybermuseum.com/1969gpsj/

I paid $15,000 for it. I thought it was steep -- but it was the best I was going to do and it just like I wanted it.

I've spent another $390 for an A/C compressor, $170 for a radiator, $139 for a rebuilt carb, and about $100 for hoses, belts R-134 conversion kit. Runs pretty good - but needs a little more omph. I'll do something with the heads.

Dave

[69SJ4SPEED]

I got BONED. The paperwork just came in from PHS and the car should be an auto.

I can't tell you how stupid I feel for falling for that. He called me and told me that he needed the cash and it had to be within 4 hours or he wouldn't sell. I should have smelled a rat. Didn't have an opportunity to submit to PHS and wait.

I think the other tip off is the cruise control. I asked him if Pontiac was making cruise control for 4-speeds in 69 -- and he swore they did. I didn't think they did and should have gone with my gut feeling / memory.

In retrospect, the car is what I wanted -- but counterfeit. This guy had the car for two years and was active in a Pontiac club -- so I'll go to my grave knowing that he knowingly boned me. Live and learn!

Don't let people pressure you into buying a limited production option car without checking before you hand over your money.


------------------

['ol Pinion head]

Dave,
Regret hearing this. Our local yokel club members would do you no better. This is a sad state of affairs & the main reason many of us longtimers stick to ourselves & away from the carlot "good economy" "Classic" car builders. I'm not a big fan of lawsuits over these matters but if car was advertised as an original 390 horse 4 speed car, you may have some legal recourse.

Did car come back as 390 horse car? Sounds like you at least have a clean solid car in the color combo you want with the 4 speed console & tranny. If you are going to drive it, little else matters.

[Keith Vrabec]

Oh Brother...

I would like to offer you some suggestions as to how to deal with the seller of this car, but I think Chris would kick me off the boards. Problem would be that you would end up in jail and this guy would just deny that he ever marketed the car as an original 4 speed car. I would make you side of the story known to your local club though, and personally, I wouldn't mind finding out who it is simply to put in my "don't deal with this guy" file. BUT I would NOT NOT NOT expect you to supply this info on the boards. It isn't the right place to sling mud.

In the spirit of the boards, I would like to provide a bit of info about 4 speed 69-71 GPs for the good of the order. Perhaps someone else can benefit.

Manual trans cars were 69-71 only. NO 72 GP came from the factory with manual trans. Documented by Fred Simmonds in late 80's, early 90's.

70 GP had only one 455 engine, there is no 455 HO that is any different that another factory GP 455. The 455 HO is really a 71-72 GTO and TA/Firebird engine with alum intake special heads etc, which I know little about. The 70 GP "HO" that everyone refers to is a nice engine, but has cast intake, D-port 64 heads and really isn't all too "exotic" like the 71-72 HO 455 engine.

NO 71 72 GP came with 455 HO engine. Don't know why, but how about this for a dream car? I would like to find one of these engines, add a Muncie trans, then plunk it in a black and gold SSJ.....Not factory but really neat. Problably could never do that to an SSJ though.

No SSJ ever came with a manual trans. Don't know why but it would be the "Holy Grail" of 70-72 GPs. (by the way, no such thing as a 69 SSJ....The 69 Royal cars had the idea with the paint, but weren't built at Hurst.)

Manual trans stuff is same as GTO with a few exceptions. Only the console insert and the plastic pocket, shift knob and counter shaft(Z-bar) mounting bracket that bolts to the frame are unique to GP. Everything else is A body stuff.

Easiest way to spot a fake is to look for the frame bracket. If there is just a metal tab welded to the frame like GTO, likely a fake.

Another way is to ask for engine codes. GP stick engines are pretty rare, and usually not in the converted car. If an auto code moter, likely fake again. I was offered a 70 GP manual trans car a year ago, had 69 leather interior, 70 400 engine and billed as original manual trans SJ. Guess what the build sheet said. There is currently a white 70 in SE Pennsylvania advertised in HMN as SJ with 400 and manual trans. I never called the guy, never got the VIN. I suspect it fake since there was a EXTREMELY similiar car advertised on CP and PY websites about a year ago too, same area, color and admitted conversion. Dealer has the car now for $5000 higher than previous price.

Ultimately, there isn't anything wrong with "fakes" and frankly they could be a lot of fun. But you should not have to PAY for them as if they were factory cars.

I'm a good friend of Mattison and a card carrying member of the Captian's Club. (The Cabin Boy....but that's really another story in itself.....) I highly recommend to use his Pontiac Historic Services to document cars before you buy. He can even fax you your build if you need it quickly. Ultimately, you can save quite a bit. For instance when I confronted the guy about the 70 with the 69 interior, build sheet in my hand, the conversation was ended in about 20 seconds. Suddenly he had to get to an appontment he forgot about. Never talked to him again.

I wouldn't mind helping anyone in advice about the 69-72 GPs, esp with rare cars. And considering that my wife would kill me if I dragged another car home, you need not worry about me buying one out from under you. (If any of you know Joyce, you know I'm not kidding.... Besides, next car is a Tahoe for "The Boss" in Earnhardt black with red and silver stripes....To think that I created this militant Intimidator groupee by myself makes me wonder where I went wrong. Perhaps Dr Frankenstein can provide some insight...)

Well, enough already. whoever wants to chat about GP's put up a topic, and if you would like to get in touch with me, email

kvrabec@geisinger.edu

Keith

[GP-K]

Dave,

Oh, Man, words just cannot tell you how sad I am to know that your car was mis-represented to you. This type of behavior (especially in the Pontiac community) just makes me mad. In an even more uncivilized world there would be one way to deal with this....




I just cannot understand dishonest people like that. It would never occur to me to represent my car as an original 4 speed car, when I know that the original body and vin, etc. went to the scrap yard. I normally would not recommend using a lawyer for much (as Danny DeVito said in the movie "Other People's Money" "lawyers are like atom bombs, we both have them, but we don't want to use them"), but in this case if you can gather proof of mis-representation, I would try to recover at least some of the cost of the car to the lower value of a standard SJ (if it is an SJ).

Well, if nothing else, you can feel free to modify the car to meet your wishes, and driving pleasure... Hopefully, you can then just enjoy driving the car.

Good luck,

K.