[ponyakr]

Due to the recent interest in Randi Lyn's '67 Bird Stocker, I decided to start 2 different threads--one for Stock & one for Super Stock.

The purpose of the threads are to:

(1) Take a closer look at the cars & drivers currently running.

(2) Take a look back at some of the successful cars & drivers of the past.

(3) Discuss possible good combos for a competitive car.

(4) Discuss actual specs & parts needed to build a competitive car, to different performance levels--from a car that will barely run the index, to a national event class winner, to a national record setter.

(5) Provide sources for the info & special parts needed.

(6) Provide a place where those building a Stock/SS car, or considering it, can ask questions.

There are several members here who are racing Stock/SS cars, or have in the past. Some of these guys can share valuable first hand info, most of which can not be found with a simple Google search. Some racers are glad to share info. Some are not. Some are too busy & don't have time. For those who are & will take the time, this will give them the opportunity to share their knowledge with us.

I may never have another Stocker, and most of you won't. But, on this forum, I think there are quite a few who are interested & will enjoy at least some of what this thread will contain.

Looking forward to seeing how much good info is presented in these threads !

[Mike Davis]

This could be a good thread. I posted on your SS thread.

[ponyakr]

"...Only problem I see is #3&4. No one wants to give out info on these builds.
Hopefully I am wrong and a few will chime in..."


Yeah, it's true that some won't. But, there are some that have & will. The Scott Burton HR mag article revealed a LOT of details I'd never heard.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-...tiac-firebird/

Brent Flynn did a long thread, on the Class Racer forum, about switching his '68 Bird from a 455 bracket car to a 400 Stocker. It was a budget build, which included a lot details. He seemed happy to share & answer questions. The car did run quicker than his index.

https://www.facebook.com/brent.flynn.501

This is a good time to add this. For all those interested in Stock/SS racing, I recommend the Class Racer forum.

http://classracer.com/classforum/forumdisplay.php?f=3

I also recommend signing up on the Class Racer Info site. It has LOTS of NHRA Stock/SS specs & info.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Selection.aspx

[Jack Ferris]

Classracer is a good sight. Mark Yacavone posts there a lot and he is a long time Pontiac racer.

[ponyakr]

Yeah, there are quite a few Pontiac racers who post there.


My very first Pontiac hero was Truman Fields, after he won the 1973 US Nats & set a new nat record, in his '68 4-speed Bird.

http://www.risesales.com/pages/Dragr.../t_fields.html

Todd Hoven ran a "Hard Times" tribute car, a while back.

[OCMDGTO]

Didn't Hi Perf Pontiac do a write up on Yacavone and his second gen bird? Pretty sure it was him and he gave up a LOT of info.

[ponyakr]

Norman Warling has posted some good info on what engines guys are running. He runs a '62 Cat Stocker, and has helped work on his brother's SS cars, one of which held a nat record for a while. He's also neighbors with Scott Burton. Scott & his son race 2 Stockers & one GT car. Those Stockers are 2 of the quickest Pontiac Stockers running today. Both have won lots of big races. Brad has been national Stock champ.

https://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=219127

I would again like to thank Norman for all the info he has posted about the class racers !

[ponyakr]

Thru the years, I suppose I've seen more Pontiac Stockers using this combo than any other. Up until recently, the NHRA hp factor was 330. Then NHRA upped it to 338hp. Not a deal breaker, just required the car to carry more weight for whatever class it runs.

One reason it was a popular combo for many years was that it fit E/SA perfectly. 330hp, 3300lbs = 10 lbs/hp = E/SA

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

But, since it is now rated at 338hp, and the same engine is rated only 325hp in the '68-'69 GTO, I would say that either GTO is now more competitive than a '68 Bird. But, I don't know of anybody running a '68 or '69 GTO Stocker right now. If anybody knows of any, please post that info.

Adam Strang, who posts here, has his old '68 Stocker for sale, in case anybody is interested. Adam now runs a '68 Bird 4-speed. The 4-speed Birds have a 325hp factor. No, it don't make sense that the same engine would have a higher hp factor if used with an auto. But NHRA adjusts factors based on ET's run at some of the national & divisional races. I think any run which is 1.2 sec or more under the class index, at some races, will get an automatic hp factor increase. That's why many of the quick Stockers sand bag in both qualifying & eliminations.

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=69513

Other drivers of some of the quick '68 Bird Stockers now racing are: Julie Biermann, Chris Stephenson, Bob Aceves, Leo Glasbrenner, Ronald Prince. Todd Hoven also has a '68. He has been driving another brand lately. But Duane Hoven drove the Bird for at least one race. And I think Brent Flynn is gonna try to run his '68 this year. Most '68 Birds run either C/SA, D/SA, or E/SA. They can also run the RA2 round port engine, if they can afford the RA2 heads. Should run a bit quicker, with the heads and bigger cam. And only a 340hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...3&MAKE=Pontiac

If these numbers are correct, the same engine has a 365hp factor, in a GTO. This shows why you need to check out all the NHRA specs before choosing an engine/body combo.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...8&MAKE=Pontiac

If ya'll know of other '68 Bird Stockers, please post that info.

[ponyakr]

Another engine that has had a lot of Stocker success, thru the years, is the 455HO. Brad Burton has run one for years. Went a little too quick at one race, not too long ago and got a horsepower hit from NHRA. The '72 455HO with RA now has a factor 352hp, in a Bird.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

But, the non ram air version appears to have a 330hp factor as of 1/1/18. So, I would assume Brad is now running the non-RA set-up. Maybe Norman Warling will see this & let us know. Anybody else know ?

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...9&MAKE=Pontiac

Scott Underhill held the E/SA national record for a while, with his 455HO T-37.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...0&MAKE=Pontiac

One of the first 455HO Stockers I can remember reading about was the Tons-a-Fun '72 Wagon. It was built by Gary Wood. His wife Charlene drove it some. They actually had 2 of 'em. One had a reg '72 Lemans front. The other had the GTO type front. There is some info about these cars at the bottom of the page, in this article.

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0212hpp-pontiac-history/

Not real sure who else is still running a 455HO in Stock. Larry Maxwell was running a '72 Lemans. But this year he has been running a '68 Bird GT car. A '72 recently showed up at a big race. It was listed with a female driver from Canada. Don't know if that's Larry's old car or not. Can anybody name some other 455HO Stockers currently running.

[ponyakr]

Just happened to think, Don Turk sold his GA Stocker & built a T-37. I suppose it has a 455HO.

And, Allen Holingsworth's Formy may also have a 455HO.

[F/S GTO]

The motor that's in the car now still has TRW pistons but someone told me those don't work😉

[ponyakr]

"...They also had a 64 GTO or Tempest they campaigned. it was for sale at one of the Pontiac Southern Nationals and looked like a big project..."

http://www.monkking64gto.com/


"...Do not forget to add John Schloe's '69 Firebird..."

http://www.pontiacpower.com/performance.htm

[69FIREBIRD76MM]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

"...They also had a 64 GTO or Tempest they campaigned. it was for sale at one of the Pontiac Southern Nationals and looked like a big project..."

http://www.monkking64gto.com/


"...Do not forget to add John Schloe's '69 Firebird..."

http://www.pontiacpower.com/performance.htm

John Schloe has a 71 formula, it was power by a 455, 66 heads, trw pistons, stock rods, it had a .420" lift comp cams, it run really low 11's. Then he switch to SS with a 400, in his car. Real nice guy.

[ponyakr]

Originally Posted by F/S GTO

The motor that's in the car now still has TRW pistons but someone told me those don't work😉

That's a good point. I assume whatever brand of pistons you run have to meet NHRA weight requirements, and be approved part numbers. So, I can't see how there should be a huge performance advantage.

So, can anybody who has run both the TRW and the high dollar legal pistons give us a report about the performance comparison ?

I assume the Speed Pro/TRW pistons would definitely be plenty good for building a low budget Stocker engine, that would run under it's index.

[ponyakr]

The '69 T/A is now legal for Stock competition. A '69 T/A clone would make a cool Stocker, IMO.

http://classracer.com/classforum/showthread.php?t=69619

But, with the RA3 engine being rated at 356 hp, I don't think it would be too competitive. Due to the cam rules, I don't think it has any more potential than the 330hp engine, which is rated at 345. Anybody know how much power difference the RA system would make, on a '69 Bird Stocker ? Are the Ram Air cars even required to run the RA system ? Anyhow, like a lot of other combos, it could be built to run just barely under the index. Sometimes, after a combo is run for a while, NHRA can be talked into reducing the hp factor.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...px?ENGINE=2030

[F/S GTO]

I wasnt just under the index I was 1.04 under the index with TRW pistons with more left.
It's the same shortblock I started out with in the GTO and I struggled to run in the 11's . So that shows you how much everything else matters.

[ponyakr]

Are you allowed to run floating pins, with the TRW pistons ? Any kind of trick rings needed.

[F/S GTO]

Yes, you're allowed to float the pins even if the pistons didn't come that way. Mine are not in this motor. Speed Pro rings. The block is a '69 station wagon block that came in the GTO when I bought it 1984.

[ponyakr]

Thanks again for the info. ! That should be good news for any low budget guys who might wanna build a Stocker. I assume that the SP/TRW pistons will save about $500, on a 400 or 455 build.

Hey, there are lots of Pontiac guys who talk down to anybody who suggests using those pistons. TRW is the only brand of forged pistons I ever bought/raced. Made lots of passes in our 455 bracket cars. Never had one single problem with a TRW piston.

I understand about the advantages of lighter pistons, in engines where there are no rules against 'em.

That brings up another question. The Eagle H-beam rods are legal. They weigh only 760gr. So, would the TRW piston/Eagle H-beam combo be to light to pass NHRA tech ?

I see that there is a minimum piston/pin/rings/rod assembly weight. So I assume that a TRW piston/pin with a 760gr rod + SP rings will be over that minimum.

http://www.classracerinfo.com/Engine...5&MAKE=Pontiac

Piston-Rod Specs----Piston Weight-----Comp Height----Pin Weight------Rings----------Rings Weight----Rod C/C--Max Rod C/C---Rod Weight----Min Assy Weight
--------------------------------551g---------------- 1.695"------------- 90g-------5/64, 5/64, 3/16---------57g------------6.625"-------6.650"------------760g---------------1458g

Also see that the Comp Height is listed at 1.695. I think the SP L2262F pistons have a 1.714 height. Since those pistons are on the accepted list, I assume that the pin height can vary.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Speed-Pro-T...BWvhuB&vxp=mtr

[Skip Fix]

I have a copy of John Schoe's RAIV cam 274/274 @ 0.050. My TRWs did not have enough V-P for me to try it! John said he used offset dowels to get the valve right in the piston pocket. And back then used cast rods!