[Craig Hendrickson]

I hope I'm not jumping the gun and embarrassing either of these guys, but I've been in phone and email contact recently with a couple of reputable guys who are doing restoration or what-ifs on the H-O TurboForce. I figure they can use the encouragement as well as other information and knowledge that I am able to give them and maybe some can come from replies on this thread.

1) Mike Barefoot is the webmaster of TransAmCountry.com. He's doing a combo TurboForce and FireAm "what if". I'm a sort of "consultant" on this project. Mike has written up an intro:

http://transamcountry.com/site/turbo-fire-am

2) Jim & Joe Hand are doing some kind of resto/upgrade on a Turbo Macho T/A. I'm also a sort of "consultant" on this project in that Joe is talking to me by phone on some of the long forgotten details and "what to avoids" on it. I don't have a website for this one (yet).

Also, if you want to see my "TurboForce Revival" on my website, see:

http://originalho.com/TurboForce.html

My 1976 Firebird Esprit "TurboForce Revival" car is for sale and a couple of guys are interested in it. We'll see where that goes. I need to move on to other projects.

By way of performance index, "back in the day", I was once asked to do a drag strip test on a customer's 1979 T/A T-F, we took it to the old OCIR. Without much tuning, but with slicks, Cal-Tracks and open exaust it ran 11.97 @ 115 on a stock engined T-F. Pretty spectacular in 1979 for a "street car". LOL

Anyway, as I get more info on these two builds, I'll update this thread.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Craig Hendrickson

By way of performance index, "back in the day", I was once asked to do a drag strip test on a customer's 1979 T/A T-F, we took it to the old OCIR. Without much tuning, but with slicks, Cal-Tracks and open exaust it ran 11.97 @ 115 on a stock engined T-F. Pretty spectacular in 1979 for a "street car". LOL

So what do you think that the original Turboforce car was making Horsepower/torque wise to run that 11.97 at 115? (Weight of the car, etc vs HP from the engine)

What do the guys want to make for power/torque for these resto builds?

How much different was the Horsepower Ken Crocie made a few years ago with his Turbo dyno project vs the HP these guys desire?

Tom Vaught

[Craig Hendrickson]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

So what do you think that the original Turboforce car was making Horsepower/torque wise to run that 11.97 at 115? (Weight of the car, etc vs HP from the engine) Tom Vaught

I figured that out at the time and the calculation comes out at about 400 RWHP and 460 Flywheel HP. A few years ago I ran a Dyno2000 sim on a T-F equipped stock 1978 W72 400 and came close to that (450HP).

What do the guys want to make for power/torque for these resto builds?

I don't think either of those projects want to set the world on fire with a maxed out T-F.

How much different was the Horsepower Ken Crocie made a few years ago with his Turbo dyno project vs the HP these guys desire?

Ken's project was somewhat different. He used a stroker crank in the 400 for something like 480CID and also modified the turbo so that it was bigger. I don't remember about head work or cam. In any case on the Westech dyno it made 538HP and 738lb-ft! Those are pretty impressive numbers, IMO. I don't think you could drive that on the street (in full song) in a stock 1978 WS6 Trans Am 4-speed, but that's the car where it's installed!

Craig

[mrbandit]

First off, I really appreciate the advice and help you've given me Craig. I hope I can do your system justice. I'll do my best to keep the topic up to date on my progress. As for goals. I just want to build it, have fun doing it and see what comes of it. My last TA was a 77SE that was respectable, but not very streetable. I'm going to keep this engine mild and let the turbo do the work. I would say that my engine build will be much like the revival car, but I will be using an MSD BTM box for my ignition solution. I am reproducing the Fire Am suspension using pro-touringf-body pieces.

Today, I have the Fire Am setup ready to go and I am in major disassembly mode. I was hoping to have the front sub frame off the car, so I can rebuild it and fab the turboforce brackets. I wanted more room while I did this part, so I moved the body outside. You would know it rained all weekend, so I couldn't work on it.

Mike

[Skip Fix]

I actually just dug up the old Hot Rod article on the Macho TAs from '78 if anyone want a copy.

[Joe37]

Hi fellows, I am Joe Hand, Jims youngest son. I am the one helping with a turbo T/A project. We are seeking fuel and ignition advice. Craig all ready has helped a bunch and has sent us in the right directions. We would like to know what ignition systems are available and what type of fuel pumps others are using. This is not going to be a race car, our local track is closed so it will never see one. We want reliability and decent power, yet still look like the dealer installed kit the car came with, or as close to it as we can get. This is a original 1978 Macho T/A with turbo charger package, one of only 20 installed that year!

We have some work ahead of us. The motor needs partially taken apart for a cam check and to look at its condition. Its a ten year old rebuild that was never started. Once its started and broke in, then we are going to install the turbo parts, all while on the test stand for easy of fitting and checking location and what not.

Thanks again for your offers of help, we are going to need them,

Joe

[Tom Vaught]

Based on the targets Craig posted, what is wrong with a "Boost Referenced" Mechanical Fuel Pump? (Chevy "6 valve" pump with a Pontiac Arm like Ken Crocie came up with years ago.)

If you were trying to make more Horsepower then a Aeromotive A-1000 Electric Pump and a Aeromotive 13202 "Boost Referenced" Regulator would be a one time buy and give you lots of fuel reserve.

Tom Vaught

[Craig Hendrickson]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Based on the targets Craig posted, what is wrong with a "Boost Referenced" Mechanical Fuel Pump? (Chevy "6 valve" pump with a Pontiac Arm like Ken Crocie came up with years ago.)

If you were trying to make more Horsepower then a Aeromotive A-1000 Electric Pump and a Aeromotive 13202 "Boost Referenced" Regulator would be a one time buy and give you lots of fuel reserve.

Tom Vaught

H-O finally gave up on the boost referenced mechanical pump (Carter HD/HV) even back in the day. The diaphram stretches at even 6psi boost, so the fuel outlet pressure does not follow the boost reference. In addition, the diaphram is prone to cracking, which means that when that happens gas goes up the boost reference line! IMO, the ONLY proper solution is a 60gph+ electric pump at the back of the car with AT LEAST 20psi of static fuel pressure (30+ would be even better.) Of course you need a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator and a big enough return line so that the regulator can hold the pressure at the carb inlet at 6psi relative.

The Aeromotive setup (or equivalent) is definitely a way to go. You could probably get by with something smaller, more along the lines of the Holley 12-920 inline (67GPH@45psi).


Craig

[70 bird]

A1000 and a 13202 regulator here.

[Tom Vaught]

I have seen a lot of failures with Holley electric Fuel Pumps over the last 40 years so I will stick with my A1000 and a 13202 regulator recommendations. So what is the HP target for these vehicles?

Tom Vaught

[mrbandit]

I was going to follow Craigs advice on my fuel system. Also, when Craig and I spoke on the phone I want to say he mentioned putting a larger pickup line on the sender unit. I'm planning on do this to mine. As for the ignition I am looking at the MSD BTM setup. It is a 6al box, with a rev limiter and boost retard.

[Joe37]

Tom, we have no horsepower number in mind, we want a decent running, reliable car, besides, we all now numbers don't mean anything anyway.

We to plan to follow Craig's system advice. We are still looking at pumps and all the options. Holley pumps have worked great for dad and I over the years. We are still not leaning towards MSD yet.

joe

[Tom Vaught]

1) Nothing wrong with having a decent running, reliable running car. So the first question would be what is your definition of "a decent running" car? Is this a 350 HP 400 cid engine?, 400 HP?, 450 HP?, 500 HP?

So your goals see pretty vague when discussion what fuel pump/fuel system you need with boost. 70bird has a Firebird (Actual Street Car) with a turbo system that he put together that is very reliable and makes 700+ hp. He recommended the A1000 pump and a 13202 regulator, which he knows actually works.

So the numbers actually do mean something.

Course if you are planning on RESTORING a Turboforce car with the same 301 Rajay turbo that was installed in 1978 and the making that level of HP then use exactly what Craig recommended as it worked in 1978 for that HP level. Craig told me one time that he thought the Turbo Force system put out about 450 HP. You can make 450 HP with just about any fuel pump, even a Holley Blue Pump.

Tom Vaught

[Tom Vaught]

I did not mention a 550 HP number because Ken Crocie needed a 489 cid engine to make 537 HP at 4400 rpm at 8 psi of boost with the Turbo Force system and a upgraded Turbo (vs the stock Rajay 301 Turbocharger) and a Dyno optimized Q-jet.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...d/viewall.html

Tom Vaught

[Joe37]

We are not interested in 700 hp, but if the pump and ignition work well, then thats something we will look into. Can we get a link to the company that sells them? We are using the original turbo from '78 along with the Q-jet and factory exhaust.

Joe

[Tom Vaught]

http://aeromotiveinc.com/products-pa...000-fuel-pump/

"This is the pump that started it all. Durable, reliable, good looking and it supports high horsepower. Perfect for the daily driver that doesnʼt run like a daily drive"

The aeromotive 13202 is about 10 bucks more at Jegs than the 13204 but is a known boosted engine regulator with very high durability. I would buy the 13202 personally.

http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/13204/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/i/Aeromotive/027/13202/10002/-1

Tom Vaught

[70 bird]

Here ya go.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-13202

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-11101

[70 bird]

Got me Tom! lol.

[Steve Barcak]

We here in Arizona have enjoyed having Craig attend and speak at Pontiac Heaven events each spring here in Phoenix and wish to invite the owners of these builds to attend as well. You would be very welcome here. We are proud fans of the H-O legacy in Pontiac history.

[Craig Hendrickson]

I also mentioned to Mike and Joe and it was an important part of Ken Crocie's Car Craft T-F tune: the original Turbonetics wastegate was only good when the exhaust was restricted with the original stock "pancake" cat and also the single behind the axle muffler. As soon as one opens up the exhaust system (dual Hi-Po cats or omitting same and good flowing mufflers), the Turbonetics wastegate cannot bypass enough exhaust to control the boost. If you note on Ken's CC setup, he used a much bigger wastegate relocated to the front 3in turbo inlet pipe. That worked.

I still have a Turbonetics wastegate on my Revival Firebird and on WOT, the boost will bang over to 10psi almost instantly even with the wastgate full open. Fortunately, I have an auxilliary fuel tank that I can fill with 102 octane (racing) gas and switch over to that if I want to make a full out run. Otherwise, I keep it about half throttle (a couple PSI boost).