#21  
Old 03-21-2004, 06:28 AM
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george, are you running a fan shroud?
clutch fan?
thanks,david

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Old 03-21-2004, 09:35 AM
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hey 67 where did you buy that pump?

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74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
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2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32
M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial

2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's
  #23  
Old 03-21-2004, 09:40 AM
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nevermind i reread the post .lol...plus i think yours is older I have a 74 455 but the same concept applies thats why i never run a thermostat cause they run hot I will definately have to check mine now and then run a 160*
thanks George!

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74 Grandville 2Dr 455 c.i 4550#
2011 1.60 60 ft,7.33@94.55-11.502@117.74


2017, 74 firebird -3600 lbs (all bests) 1.33 60 ft, 6.314@108.39 9.950@134.32
M/T 275/60 ET SS Drag Radial

2023,(Pontiac 505) 1.27 60 ft, 5.97@112.86, 9.48@139.31.... 275/60 Radial Pro's
  #24  
Old 03-21-2004, 10:41 AM
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No, I don't have a shroud. That was in my plans earlier, along with a larger radiator, but now I'll wait for the warmer weather B4 I make any further changes. First I have to finish the windshield repair, paint the dash, get the windshield back in........etc.

I do have a clutch fan, tho.

I was heating at idle, temp was going up to 220 just at idle, fan was working, everthing seemed to be in order, yet the system couldn't get the heat out of the engine. One thing led to another...... the simple fix worked; cost was that of a gasket.

So far so good!

George

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Old 03-21-2004, 11:22 AM
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old goat, how about you?
running a shroud and clutch fan?
thanks,david

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Old 03-21-2004, 02:08 PM
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Yes, David, everything stock except the 160 thermostat. Oops, I have a staggered 5 core radiator in there for about a dozen years. Forgot about that, it's been in there so long! The core was put in the original top & bottom tanks. Brother in law had a radiator shop! Bumper sticker read "Lafayette Radiator - Best place in town to take a leak!"
Charles

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Old 03-21-2004, 03:18 PM
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went to parts store today to check on water pump oldgoat suggested.
part no. is good, they have to order in part. will be here monday.
but...my clutch fan seems to spin quite easily.hardly any drag at all. does this mean it is bad?
looked into replacement clutch.
question...what is diff between thermal and non-thermal clutch. which should i get?
thanks,david

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Old 03-21-2004, 05:45 PM
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David,
When you get the new pump in, check the position of the impellor on the shaft. Reference to my picture on preceding page, the impellor was not pressed on the shaft far enough, it was flush with the end of the shaft. The impellor was not sitting in the recess of the pump housing properly. It was too far out on the shaft for the divider plate to fit. Your unit may or may not have to be adjusted. Someone may just have done mine on Friday afternoon. Feel free to holler when you need to.
I am not familiar with the Thermal or Non-Thermal designation. Could they mean Thermal or Friction clutch? Below is the clutch info from the 67 Pontiac manual, so you can understand the operation of the fan clutch.

THERMOSTATICALLY CONTROLLED ENGINE
FAN FLUID CLUTCH
A thermostatically controlled engine fan fluid clutch is used on Air conditioned equipped cars and operates only when additional air flow is required to reduce radiator coolant temperatures.
This clutch is of simple functional design and is made of lightweight metal filled with silicone oil which is hermetically sealed. The finned (rear) housing contains a hub assembly (secured to the housing bearing) which attaches to the engine water pump. Four bosses with tapped holes (in the rear face) provide for attachment of the engine fan. The front surface of the housing has six deep circular grooves which index with six matching bosses on the rear face of a floating clutch. A separator plate and front cover (with thermostatic coil control) complete the clutch assembly.
FUNCTION
During periods of operation when radiator discharge air temperature is low (below approximately 150°F.), the fan clutch limits the fan speed to 800-1400 rpm. In this position, the clutch is disengaged since a small oil pump driven by the separator plate forces the silicone oil into the reservoir between the separator plate and the front cover assembly. In this position also, the passage from this cavity to the clutch area is closed by the coil spring leaf valve.
As operating conditions produce a high radiator discharge air temperature (above approximately
150°F.), the temperature sensitive bi-metal coil tightens to move the leaf valve (attached to the coil)which opens a port in the separator plate, allowing flow of silicone oil into the clutch chamber to engage clutch, providing a maximum fan speed of approximately 2200 rpm.
The clutch coil is calibrated so that a road load with an ambient temperature of approximately 90°F.,the clutch is just at a point of shift between high and low fan speed.
No attempt should be made to disturb the calibration of the engine fan clutch assembly as each assembly is individually calibrated at the time of manufacture.
Under certain temperature conditions there is an apparent lateral movement at the fan tip which should not be considered as a hub or bearing failure. This condition is a design feature of the clutch assembly which allows up to approximately 1/4" lateral movement measured at the fan tip.
NOTE: Testing a fan clutch by holding the small hub with one hand and rotating the aluminum hous
ing in a clockwise/counterclockwise motion will cause the clutch to freewheel, which is a normal
condition when operated in this manner. This should not be considered a test by which replace
ment is determined.

Hope this helps you to decide. Why not change just your pump first to see what good you did there, and then change the clutch if you still need it? Do you feel good air flow from the fan now or not?
Good Luck
Charles

  #29  
Old 03-22-2004, 03:24 PM
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Facintating !

Border line brilliant
My opinion only, Where's my ruler and hammer.
the larger vane pump, the cardone, were did you get it?
I noticed that the diagram did not show the plastic tubes.

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  #30  
Old 03-22-2004, 03:55 PM
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Duh, I see it now.

I would like to offer a suggestion / test.
Try running it with no T - stat.
My car runs 20 degrees coler with no T - stat.
However she will climb in temp at idle.
Once the stat is open, it's open, try drilling some holes in the stat you have that didn't work well. I am pushing the idea of trying no stat vs. modified stat.
Really the distance of the plate seems such an easy solution when you think of it,( I didn't ) It will just grab more water to push thru the system, the larger the gap, the more it spins in the same area of water, slowing down the flow. I was wondering what the temp difference will be between the two, Glad to see your problem fixed, just wondering how much the flow will relate to temp changes.
Facinating.........

Seems so easy......Nothing more than a few taps of a hammer.
Could this be the cure for us?

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  #31  
Old 03-22-2004, 04:26 PM
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I think it may be presumptious to say it will cure all temp related evils, but in near-stock applications I think it very well may.

More data from board members would be nice to see just how good a solution this is; i.e. a more scientific test.

So far 3 members yes, 0 no.

I became curious when reading all the posts related to high engine temps and kept asking the question "Why now? That wasn't the case when the engines were new 40 years ago. What's the diff?"

Since mine was essentially stock, and seeing the same thing, I pulled my pump to see if it had the stamped impeller. To my dismay, it was cast. A closer look and I saw the clearance issue and figured "what the hell, maybe in all the years, the rebuilders got sloppy and didn't press the impellers on the shaft to the proper clearance spec.

ANyway, my idle temps stabilized and it doesn't puke coolant after shutdown. This summer, I'll do some more testing & see.

Some more data from board members would be nice to see just how good a solution this is.

George

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  #32  
Old 03-22-2004, 04:29 PM
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The termostat is there for a good reason, to get the engine up to operating temp quickly & evenly. It's function is to regulate the engine temp to allow proper expansion of all parts. Running without one is not a good idea in my opinion. In a properly funtioning system the thermostat will regulate the temp by opening and closing on design. Too much flow, it closes and brings the temp back up. I have always believed this and after trying George's suggestion, proved it again. Now I'm worried about it running too cool! That's a hell of a change! As I said, I am running a HIGH FLOW Stant, same design as the Stewart components thermostats talked about on this forum. Folks, be sure not to use the one's you get at the local auto parts "deaf and dumb village" places we all have now. Most of what you can buy there would not be sufficient for a four wheeler engine.
Rugratman, if you are running 20 degrees cooler without it, your machine is trying to tell you something. You are marginal in the cooling department. Fix it before you are telling a tale of woe about overheating for a long time, LIKE ME!
George made me go back to thinking and I cannot thank him enough!
I bought this GTO brand new, and should have been able to sense that something was not right after replacing that water pump 12 to 15 years ago. It wasn't that bad at first, because the rest of the system was at peak. Instead of getting down to ANALYZING it, I tried to fix it with everything else I could think of.
Of course, I can use the excuse that it wasn't the main transportation tool anymore, but that's a weak excuse. She has never let me down, why did I let her down?
Anyway, all I'm trying to say is "learn from my mistakes".
Have fun and keep Wide Tracking,
Charles

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  #33  
Old 03-22-2004, 04:30 PM
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Aonther thing: to me it looks like the idea that you have to slow the coolant flow to pick up heat from the engine and exchange it thru the radiator doesn't hold "water" (sorry for the pun). The more efficient pump will be moving a greater volume of coolant in a given time and that seems to cool better, IMO.

George

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Old 03-22-2004, 04:32 PM
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You Da Man george!

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Old 03-22-2004, 04:38 PM
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All members with a cooling improvement please send $1.00 to: Georges' Retirement and GTO fund,
Grand Cayman ISland, BWI LOL!

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Old 03-22-2004, 05:05 PM
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I'm game! Damn straight!

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Old 03-22-2004, 08:03 PM
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If I am to understand you correctly, the divider needs to be pushed in or pulled away from the internal housing? When I put in my rebuilt water pump in the fall, along with hoses, thermostat and radiator cap, there was some kind of sealer between the two that I peeled off,cleaned up, so I did the same again. I think I put a sealer on the dividers to keep em from moving around and in place next to the internal housing. When I parked it in the fall, on the way to storage it ran sluggish and the temp was going up.

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Old 03-22-2004, 08:20 PM
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This IS very interesting, I haven't visited this forum yet, I'm glad I did!

Two things:

1) I've done lots of waterpumps and I have definitely seen lots of impellers pressed on to the wrong depth. Too far, or not enough.

2) While this careful attention to impeller depth is good, is there a penalty in how much more HP the "new and improved" waterpump is consuming? Can there be too much pumping resistance? I think I've heard that some waterpumps can suck up 10-15 HP? Probably not a big deal to most, but the semi serious racer guys may care...

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  #39  
Old 03-22-2004, 08:39 PM
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Rudy, on that '67 diagram of the pump assy, the flat surface of the internal housing shoould be adjusted towards the surface of the pump vanes.

There certainly will be more power used by an optimized pump. However, I believe the goal here is to get the assembly back to the OEM design specs; as such there obviously is a limit as to how "good" or lossy the pump will be.

I guess for race purposes, the pump clearance can be relaxed, (less power wasting) at the expense of heating. An interesting trick...

One way to estimate how much power is used by the pump is to check the specs of an electric pump and get the HP figures from that. They should be fairly close.

George

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  #40  
Old 03-22-2004, 09:02 PM
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With a mechanically driven pump, the power usage increases with RPM. An electric pump such as a Meziere uses about 98 W, less than 1/4 HP, according to their specs. Of course, it's constant speed and delivers 35GPM.

Just a thought for the serious racer.

George

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