#41  
Old 03-23-2004, 01:46 PM
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George do you accept Canadian at par ? I didn`t think so .

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Old 03-23-2004, 02:03 PM
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OK, I read the post, and immediately tore into the engine last weekend. Pulled the water pump, and divider pump. I measured the clearance between the vanes, and the center hole in the internal housing (mine looks like the pic that old goat posted) and it was about at .4"!!! So I knocked it with the hammer until it was about .09” reinstalled, and much better, but not completely fixed. It used to run about 220, especially in traffic, now it’s down to 200 plus or minus. It really helped, but still looking for a little more. Any suggestions from you guys? I put in a 160 stat. With that, and that water pump housing modifications, it takes a lot longer to get hot, but still will eventually. This was a great tip though, thanks for the help.

[This message was edited by eric17621 on March 23, 2004 at 01:12 PM.]

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Old 03-23-2004, 03:30 PM
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Interesting observation. Since you say your configuration is similar to Old Goat, could it be possible that the original had the deeper vanes? I find it hard to believe that the factory would design it with that large of a gap. (.4",WAY too large). With this new data I would suggest that engines using the internal housing style of pump should have a pump style such as Old Goat installed currently.

Looking at the problem from the other direction, Old Goat stated he replaced the original pump (he bought the car new) some 10 years ago or such, and his heating problems started then, but not really noticed since the car was driven less.

This leads me to believe the first replacement pump had the wrong vanes.

Eric: I'd say If you could get a pump with the deeper vanes, you would be better yet.

Kate's GTO: the banks in Grand Cayman will be happy to accept your currency!

George

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Old 03-23-2004, 05:33 PM
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Those who still believe the old wives tale of water flowing 'too fast' should view the stewart components website, where this & many other 'myths' are de-bunked.

www.stewartcomponents.com & then click on Tech Tips

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Old 03-23-2004, 06:20 PM
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Guys and/or Gals,
I tried the best I could to tell the major difference between the two pumps. YES, the old pump I took out DID NOT have the depth of vanes that the replacement has. Therefore, it can be concluded without much speculation two things. 1) A greater amount of surface area of impellor blades WILL move more water. 2) Absence of space between the vanes and the rear and front of the impellor WILL NOT allow as much cavitation. That is why I used George's suggestion to the maximum.
I first made sure the pump was pressed on the shaft to put the impellor as far into the front casting as it was supposed to be, and secondarily "tweaked" the divider to conform to the back side of the impellor configuration as possible. Any impellor on any water pump must operate in a specific area to be efficient, without any external or internal forces acting against its performance. Case in point from my boating days; any propeller on a boat motor that has a blade out of sync with the rest of them or air allowed to enter the slip stream of the water pump (that’s what a prop is) will create turbulence (inefficiency) in the water flow. Turbulence is defined as A: “wild, unruly, disorderly commotion” and B: “disorderly or tumultuous conduct” and C: “departure in a fluid from a smooth or streamline flow with accompanying sinuosity and eddies”.
It ain’t rocket science, it’s just so simple it works! That’s what’s called the KISS principle. “Keep it simple, stupid!”
What’s really mind-boggling is that I missed it 12 years ago! My only defense is that after changing countless water pumps before and never having such a problem is that most other pumps do not have a rear pump plate that affects the operation of it as ours does. Most go into a predetermined back spacing area that is not going to affect the pump operation, as is present in this design. In 37 years, this is the most aggravating thing I have found about the design of this engine, and it wasn’t Pontiac’s fault. It was the fault of the supplier of the replacement pump I happened to use AND mine! My GTO engine is RIGHT now and I hope only to help you folks have the same. Knowing that I can go down the road and get back to listening and feeling for the symphony between man and machine while not having to worry about that DAMN temperature gauge is priceless. My only worry in that department now is “am I running TOO COOL”.
There are at least 4000 other parts on that thing, let’s give them their fare share of time and attention. She has always taken care of me; I should do the same for her. In 124,800 miles, this girl has NEVER let me down. Sunday driving or “buddy, gonna shut you down” type.

Would I contribute to George’s retirement fund, Damn Straight!

Please, everyone have a good day!
Charles

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Old 03-24-2004, 06:38 AM
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This is a great thread!!! I'd bet many of our cars have this problem to some degree. I can't wait to tear mine open and check. Thanks George.

Old Goat - Unless theres something I don't understand about the cooling system, I'd say that running too cool is an easily controlable problem (vs. running hot). Can't you just install the appropriate temp thermostsat to rectify it?

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  #47  
Old 03-24-2004, 08:42 AM
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Thought I would add some more.... I'm going for 1000 posts...

A good analogy for water flow is air, fans and heat sinks used in the electronics industry. Anyone who has looked inside a computer knows that there is a massive heat sink and fan on the processor. The obvious purpose of the fan is to increase airflow thru the heat sink to keep the CPU as cool as possible. The greater the airflow, the cooler the CPU.

In fact, the thermal specs on heat sinks show heat sink temperature vs. air flow. The sink temp is ALWAYS lower with greater airflow. Air is a fluid, same as water, just less dense.

An excellent analogy. Why didn't I think of it before?

Keep those dollars coming..... 1000 posts are in sight!

George

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  #48  
Old 03-24-2004, 10:32 AM
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Fantastic results and a great explanation! I think this is as close as we've come the "holy grail" for cooler-running Pontiacs. I can't wait to try it.

Nice work George.

Regards,
Bob Trimpe

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  #49  
Old 03-24-2004, 10:54 AM
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My local checker auto parts store has that water pump in stock. I will be trying this also, as soon as I get the chance.

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1970 GTO 458 CID .040 over 4 Bolt 428 Block, Forged Eagle 455 Crank, 295 CFM SD KRE D-Ports, SD Old Faithful HR Cam + Comp HR Lifters, PPR Maxx-lite rods, Racetec pistons, PRW 1.65 SS Rockers, 900CFM Holley HP TBI, Performer RPM, Hooker Super Comps, 3" X-Pipe into 2.5" mufflers/tailpipes, 2.75 1st TH400, Continental 13" Converter, 8.5" 3.08 Posi.
Everything installed, fired up and tuning has begun!
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:55 AM
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Hey Bob, can I get your pledge for a buck? (a shameless attempt to increase the number of posts)

George

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Old 03-24-2004, 07:47 PM
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George,
I just had to tell you
how pleased I was this evening. Mama and I went for a ride about 15 miles
over to the local NAPA so I could pick up some new belts and bulbs. Guy,
that temp gauge WOULD NOT budge off of 160! Only about 73 here today. On the
way back I was kicking myself for not checking if they had a good high flow
180 thermostat in stock, but then I thought "I think I'll leave it this way
till the 97 degree temps get here." Might as well finish the testing phase,
right?
Darn, it's a pleasure to drive this car again.
I am seeing the rest of you folks listening and thinking. Believe me, this fix does work. Can't begin to tell you'll (southernese there) how many tries I've had a this problem b4 George lit me up. Check it out, soon. To use an old phrase, "It's cool, Man!"
Charles Broussard

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Old 03-24-2004, 07:56 PM
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P.S. The belts cost twice as much as the water pump did!

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Old 03-24-2004, 07:57 PM
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AND, I love telling people they do not have enough money to buy it again!

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Old 03-24-2004, 08:36 PM
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Charles, give yourself some credit. You noticed the discrepancy in the vane size. That's got to be a big hit on flow also.

I'm starting to wonder..I would like to know if anyone reducing their engine temp also notices an improvement in starting performance. Since the starter is bolted solidly to the block, it's conceivable that the starter may be pretty close to block temp. I think I've got an improvement but I'll have to wait for warmer temps for any kind of testing.

George

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Old 03-25-2004, 02:38 AM
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George i wonder if someone with a stamped steel impeller tried this yet and if they had the same results? Lowered operating temps increased coolant flow through rad. Sent a george washington to Bank of America in Cayman Island beautiful place stopped there on a cruise would go back in a heart beet. Scott

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  #56  
Old 03-25-2004, 05:37 AM
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Staring when hot is vastly improved. She is back to bumping the key without even touching the accelerator when she is hot. Love it.
Charles

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Old 03-25-2004, 09:34 AM
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OK, while I seem to have everyone’s attention on here, let me ask this. The Cardon water pump Old Goat provided a link to is available at my local auto parts store, but it is only listed as a replacement for a 67 GTO. Wasn't 65-67 the same 8 bolt design? I didn't think that they changed until 68 to the different 11 bolt style. I have the same number of mounting holes (8) and they appear to be in the same location. Can any one offer a reason that this Cardon that Old Goat is in love with would not work on a 65 389? For $24, I suppose I could just buy it and find out, but I figured I would ask.

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Old 03-25-2004, 11:02 AM
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The whole time I thought that water pump from cardone was the later style. So I looked up the proper one and the later style from them shows what looks like a stamped impeller on it. Whats up with that? I wonder why they would use a heavy duty looking cast impellar on the 67 style and some little stamped one on the 70 style. Or is that a cast impellar and they just look that much different on the 11 bolt ones?

[This message was edited by 428GTO70 on March 25, 2004 at 10:12 AM.]
Attached Images
File Type: bmp pump.bmp (263.7 KB, 2578 views)

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1970 GTO 458 CID .040 over 4 Bolt 428 Block, Forged Eagle 455 Crank, 295 CFM SD KRE D-Ports, SD Old Faithful HR Cam + Comp HR Lifters, PPR Maxx-lite rods, Racetec pistons, PRW 1.65 SS Rockers, 900CFM Holley HP TBI, Performer RPM, Hooker Super Comps, 3" X-Pipe into 2.5" mufflers/tailpipes, 2.75 1st TH400, Continental 13" Converter, 8.5" 3.08 Posi.
Everything installed, fired up and tuning has begun!
  #59  
Old 03-25-2004, 12:06 PM
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It would be nice if someone who has the later style pump with both cast and stamped impeller could measure the vane height and length for comparison. As KAte's GTO suggests, is it possible to make the stamped impeller work better with proper adjustments, assuming, of course that in it's original state is doesn't work as well as a cast, everything else being equal.

George

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  #60  
Old 03-25-2004, 12:52 PM
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Brings me to another question / theory.
What about a change in the size of the pulley? Alone with George's modification, the water will flow more efficently, so then would a faster flow lower evern more ?
High flow stat / Change in pulley size, Modification to plate, proper timing, could this be the cure?
The reason I mention this is that a 4 core vs 3 core Radiators do not flow at the same rate, hence a little slower in the radiator by design, will this lower cooling temp's?
I must say, this is a fascinating turn of events for us.
Too bad the IRS is watching the Caymen's right now. Sending my money to Mexico via NAFTA.
A temp of 170 is really a dream for most of us.

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