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Old 01-12-2017, 06:05 PM
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Wow,that's a fascinating that the 63 survives.Thanks.

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Old 01-16-2017, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer View Post
I hope everyone has had a great holiday. I had the opportunity to meet Don Morton who once ran Hurst Corporation for George Hurst and Franz Estereicher who is best known as the Corvette Z06 expert and owns one of Mickey Thompson's silver 1963 Corvette Z06 big tank cars and a 1962 Corvette Z06 big brake. They both attended our weekly Saturday Pasteiner's Auto Zone Hobby store gatherings. Both usually go to the Saturday gatherings at the Woodward Garage with George Delorean (Leader Automotive and John Delorean's brother) and Win Brown (early Royal Racing Team member and part of Pontiac's Daytona group).
I'll explain the reason I mention both of these guys. First Don I had told Don I owned Jim Wangers' Firebird. He asked which one? When I told him the 1968 Black one he be came very animated about the car. It said that was Jim's fastest and best stealth car. Just a black unassuming Firebird that would just blow the doors off anything on the road.
Now as for Franz, he once worked for Rockwell Industries who supplied the suspensions for GM. The springs and torsion bars. Franz designed the suspensions for Roger Penske's Camaro's and Javelins that the likes of Mark Donahue drove. Franz was also once President of Gabriel Shocks.
The reason I bring up Franz is because on a resent trip the Germany he was invited to visit a special room at Mercedes. The person who invited him knew Franz owned one of Mickey Thompson's 1963 Z06 Corvettes that raced at Daytona where Paul Goldsmith's 1963 Tempest 421 SD beat the Thompson Z06 Vettes with the Mystery Motors. The room was 6 floors DOWN. In this special room was Paul Goldsmiths Tempest. All of it's parts where still spread out on the benches from the disassembly in 1963. The body's paint still looked as it did after Paul Goldsmith drove it in 1963. The roamers that Mercedes scraped the car after purchasing it was false. Mercedes just like every manufacture buys the competition's cars to evaluate it. Then they usually reassemble it and sell it or scrap it. In this case the 1963 Tempest 421 SD just sits 6 floors below Mercedes engineering in pieces just as it has since 1963. Wow!
I was unable to down load a great article about Pontiac's Experiment into Road Racing '62 and '63 that appeared in "Vintage Motorsports" July / August and Sept / Oct 2015. Great read and show a the winning number 50 Paul Goldsmith 1963 Tempest 421 SD.
Great news Eric that the 63 SD Still Survives
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  #923  
Old 01-17-2017, 12:25 PM
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Wow,that's a fascinating that the 63 survives.Thanks.
I think I posted this some time ago but for those that haven't seen it, these are from June-1963 issue of HOT ROD MAGAZINE. Enjoy!
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  #924  
Old 01-18-2017, 08:33 PM
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Thanks. I have alot of HRs from that era missed that one.Love the 63s

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Old 02-01-2017, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer View Post
I spoke to Jim Wangers to wish him a happy New Year.
I let him know that Bob Ashton, Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals, invited me to bring the Black Bird for the 2018 November show in Rosemont, Ill (outside Chicago). Bob is having a 50th Anniversary for the F-body cars. 1967, 1968 and 1969 Firebirds and Camaros of significants. While I'm honored to get the invitation I had to turn him down. The show is always the weekend before Thanksgiving. This is a very busy time for me and my family. (This is the second time I've had to turn him down). Maybe if some one comes along with enough money, they can display the Black Bird!
It was during my conversation with Jim I informed him of the status of the Paul Goldsmith '63 Tempest. He too was surprised that the car was still in Mercedes possession, and agreed that the car should be brought back to the public eye.
Thank you Mr. Schiffer for the info in this thread = an amazing read. I have been to four of the MCACN shows and every show has been tremendous. I respect your decision not to attend but if you ever change your mind I would love to see this car in person and know everyone else at the show would as well. It is truly an event not to be missed. Please think about it??

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Old 02-01-2017, 10:57 PM
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^^^, I would make the trip from CA to the show just to see it.

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  #927  
Old 02-07-2017, 04:21 PM
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All I can say is Wow!
While I respect people liking to see the car sitting at an event like Bob Ashton's MCACN the car was meant to be driven.
Trailering a car for four to five hours around Lake Michigan, that has a habit of having sudden snow storms kick up, is not fun.
Because of the car's increased value and me being less willing to sacrifice comfort, on the street, I only bring it on during the Woodward Dream Cruise week. The car is driven not trailered to the event. Also race fuel is not as easy to come by. When I do find it is usually $7.50 per gallon. This not exactly an economy car that sips the juice!
At the Dream Cruise you will usually find the car parked with the Royal Pontiac Club. A lot more fun then being captive baby sitting the car.
Just ask Andy who began this thread how much fun the Woodward Dream Cruise week is.
Have a great New Year!
If your lucky you may even catch the Friday Night Woodward Drag race sponsored by Fiat Chrysler, City of Pontiac and M1 Concourse. (Shhh just between you and I there are a few unsanctioned races occurring too. Just keep it between us)
Thanks for wanting to see the car on display. But more fun to see it moving!

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  #928  
Old 02-07-2017, 11:02 PM
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Good to know and honestly, all points that I can relate to so I totally understand. I can't express how much respect I have for you driving the car like it should be!

I personally consider your car my all time dream Firebird. Not this year because of starting a new job, but next year, I plan on driving my 69 from CA to the Woodward cruise. She's my 'ol reliable daily driver and proud of it. Being only 37 I find her very comfortable actually for drives. The 1,700 miles drive I did just in Nov., I didn't get uncomfortable a single time!

I drive my car to every single event I can within 100 miles or more year round, try to take my teenage sons with me to as many as I can too. I was the ONLY person at my local Pontiac club gathering last week who drove their car, I made a joke about it in the meeting and not a single laugh.

Alex

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  #929  
Old 02-08-2017, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug View Post
I think I posted this some time ago but for those that haven't seen it, these are from June-1963 issue of HOT ROD MAGAZINE. Enjoy!
The engineering on those transaxles makes my head spin, no wonder Mercedes snapped it up. Basically it is the ancestor of the modern exotic transmissions, newer Maseratis etc use a clutch to get first gear and then shift automatically. I'm always amazed at what those guys came up with back then, using just pencils and slide rules...

Woodward Dream Cruise is on my destination list next year, looking forward to seeing some of the cars mentioned in this thread.

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  #930  
Old 02-11-2017, 03:51 PM
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The engineering on those transaxles makes my head spin, no wonder Mercedes snapped it up. Basically it is the ancestor of the modern exotic transmissions, newer Maseratis etc use a clutch to get first gear and then shift automatically. I'm always amazed at what those guys came up with back then, using just pencils and slide rules...

Woodward Dream Cruise is on my destination list next year, looking forward to seeing some of the cars mentioned in this thread.
Boy.. if you want to see all of these car at the Woodward Dream Cruise you better get your track shoes on! LOL

No one can possibly explain to you how impossible it would be to see it all. To take in all of the events and cars parked a long Woodward, Old Woodward, the Woodward Loop and all of the side streets and parks along the approximately 16 Miles in one day is impossible!

There are estimates of 1.5 million spectators and 40,000 (not a miss print) collector cars, hot rods, muscle car for a one day event. This is not including all of the daily drivers congesting the route.

Plan on spending the week and watch the momentum build as you attend as many weekly events you can find.

I once had to explain to the late automotive author Tom Shaw how impossible for me to explain the Dream Cruise to him was. Tom came about the third year and I caught up with him at Jim Wangers' presentation at Birmingham's Baldwin Library on Dream Cruise Saturday. I asked Tom, "So Tom can you explain the Dream Cruise to me?". He was almost speechless and told me he'll have to think long and hard how to put his experience into print.

Tom's by line will be missed from "Muscle Car Review". RIP

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  #931  
Old 02-11-2017, 04:15 PM
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Now on the more resent subject....Paul Goldsmith's 1963 Tempest SD.

Funny who drops in to see what is going on in this tread!

I was with Franz Estereicher this morning at our Saturday gathering at Pasteiner's. He pulled out of his pocket a copy of my post about him and Don Morton that was sent to him from one of his friends. I didn't catch the name of his friend. But his friend said to Franz, I never new you had an interest in Pontiac's and do you know Eric? Franz told him he meet me at Pasteiner's.

Franz also told me he received two phone calls from authors, Don Keefe and Diego Rosenberg, asking about the Paul Goldsmith Tempest. He was shocked that his unlisted number had gotten out. (Thanks to Jim Mattison)

Anyway, Franz said since he had always been interested in his Corvettes he never thought about his friend Paul Goldsmith's Pontiac. BUT NOW his interest has peaked.

Franz promised to dig through his thousands of pictures to find those of the '63 Tempest and share them with me and the others.

He is on a mission to get in contact with friends at Mercedes to find out about the '63 Tempest. If it still exists in the tear down room. If so are they willing to: 1) restore it, (2) if so will they then show it, (3) Sell it so some one will restore it (4) donate it to a museum?


Amazing what a little thread will motivate people to do...pursue the 8th Trans Am convertible (missing T/A) and pyre it from Gordon Heidecker after years of seclusion. It's unvailing was at the Chicago MCACN in November. Now follow that with getting the Paul Goldsmith '63 Tempest out in the open. Hopefully it is still there.

Any one looking for a 1968 Black Firebird?

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  #932  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:00 AM
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Awesome!! I hope it's still around and it is brought back to life for all to see!!

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Old 02-12-2017, 09:54 AM
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As I think about it if you want a taste of both the Woodward Dream Cruise and our Saturday mornings at Pasteiner's Auto Zone Hobby's. You need to go to the Royal Pontiac

Club of America's web site. http://www.royalpontiac.org/

From here click on Link to Pictures of Royal Pontiac Club Events.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/108906868@N03/sets/

This link will open over 3,800 pictures. You should be able to pick out many of the current and past industry icons who have stopped by. ie Jim Wangers', (the late) Jack "Doc" Watson, Tom Goad, Jay Wetzel, (the late) Ben Harrison, Herb Adams, Tom Peters, (Harold) Buck Mook, Chris Svensson, Mark Ruess, Ed Wilburn, Ken Lingenfelter, Craig Metros, Peter Brock, Mark Stielow, Dick Ruzzin, (the late) Darwin Clark, Kip Wasenko, Kip Ewing, Allen Grant, Gordon Heidacker, Murray Pfaff,Bill Warner and of course Steve Pasteiner, and so many others I have not named because the list goes on and on! See if you can name more.

Oh, pay attention to cars that have an "M" license plate that I.D the car as being owned by a manufacture. The manufactures also use regular Michigan plates on the cars. GM Tags many of their cars with a small widow sticker CTC (Captured Fleet car) on the lower part of the windshield. Ford does a similar procedure. Only they usually have a large I.D. with the beginning letters PP (pre production) hen some numbers on the top of the windshield on the passenger side. These cars may have parts that will not be part of the production.

Pay particular attention to when the pictures where taken. Many of the "NEW" model cars had NOT yet been introduced or released to the public or seen by the Automotive news yet.

Examples, more recently the Ford Raptor, Lincoln Continental, Buick Envision and the Cadillac XT6. Over the last few year we had some Ford Mustang Shelby GT350s, Lincoln MKT and Buick Lacrosse. See if you can find them.

These names will be familiar to many of you. To others you really need to Google the names to identify the significant's of these people to the auto industry. This will keep you busy for a few hours.

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  #934  
Old 02-12-2017, 10:45 AM
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Eric,I call Don about this post.Tom

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Old 02-12-2017, 12:22 PM
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Tom,
Thanks for getting a hold of Don.

When Don called Jim Mattison to get Franz's phone number, Jim told him to say something to Franz so he would know it came from him. Don did say those words. Good thing Franz has a good sense of humor.

Being around the industry so long most of us here don't even think about contacting magazine writers. It's a job or a personal project. We gather weekly from 7:45am'ish until 10am'ish at Pasteiner's. When we leave Pastiener's about 20 (most of the time a different 20 depending on who is in town (at LeMans, Daytona, FL, AZ, CA, Europe, etc. on business or not busy) of us head to breakfast where the restaurant, which is owned by childhood friend of mine, has a reserved area awaiting us with several hot crafts of coffee. The waitress knows us so well she just asks' "Usual?". We talk for a few more hours then head out by noonish - 1pm.

Most of the time we hear the theory's about things in the magazines and on cable and just shake our heads and talk current projects. LOL

Heck, Barry Kluszyck, past editor of some magazines and contributor to others does stop in at Pastiener's for a moment on his way taking his young daughter to an event. We exchange pleasantries and complement him on a currently released article. The Pasteiner's regular's just never think about saying, "you should go talk to ... about his project."LOL

Now how did Deigo get Franz's number?

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Last edited by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer; 02-12-2017 at 12:32 PM.
  #936  
Old 02-12-2017, 10:03 PM
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I spoke with Franz twice on Friday and learned quite a lot- apparently Diego found him independently of me. One of the things he told me is that the trail is a bit colder than originally described. He did confirm that he saw the #50 LeMans in a below ground room completely disassembled. The thing is, this sighting was in the late 1970s. While it is possible that the car is still sitting there all apart, this was about 40 years ago and a lot has happened since then. I have another source working contacts within the Daimler-Benz corporate structure and that person can get there without too much trouble. The story continues and with any luck, we will have some news to report in Poncho Perfection.

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  #937  
Old 02-13-2017, 07:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer View Post
As I think about it if you want a taste of both the Woodward Dream Cruise and our Saturday mornings at Pasteiner's Auto Zone Hobby's. You need to go to the Royal Pontiac

Club of America's web site.

This link will open over 3,800 pictures. You should be able to pick out many of the current and past industry icons who have stopped by. ie Jim Wangers', (the late) Jack "Doc" Watson, Tom Goad, Jay Wetzel, (the late) Ben Harrison, Herb Adams, Tom Peters, (Harold) Buck Mook, Chris Svensson, Mark Ruess, Ed Wilburn, Ken Lingenfelter, Craig Metros, Peter Brock, Mark Stielow, Dick Ruzzin, (the late) Darwin Clark, Kip Wasenko, Kip Ewing, Allen Grant, Gordon Heidacker, Murray Pfaff,Bill Warner and of course Steve Pasteiner, and so many others I have not named because the list goes on and on! See if you can name more.

Oh, pay attention to cars that have an "M" license plate that I.D the car as being owned by a manufacture. The manufactures also use regular Michigan plates on the cars. GM Tags many of their cars with a small widow sticker CTC (Captured Fleet car) on the lower part of the windshield. Ford does a similar procedure. Only they usually have a large I.D. with the beginning letters PP (pre production) hen some numbers on the top of the windshield on the passenger side. These cars may have parts that will not be part of the production.

Pay particular attention to when the pictures where taken. Many of the "NEW" model cars had NOT yet been introduced or released to the public or seen by the Automotive news yet.

Examples, more recently the Ford Raptor, Lincoln Continental, Buick Envision and the Cadillac XT6. Over the last few year we had some Ford Mustang Shelby GT350s, Lincoln MKT and Buick Lacrosse. See if you can find them.

These names will be familiar to many of you. To others you really need to Google the names to identify the significant's of these people to the auto industry. This will keep you busy for a few hours.
As per usual, Eric is spot on.

A couple additional comments: for GM vehicles the naming convention is "CTF", ie "Captured Test Fleet". We usually start driving the vehicles in daily use about a year before they hit the market.

The M plates allow us to drive a prototype vehicle that cannot be regular plated, like a pre-production unit or a vehicle with a non-saleable VIN. The other advantage is that an M plate is not assigned to a particular vehicle like a regular plate so that it can be swapped (somewhat) at will between vehicles. We do have to keep a log of what vehicle the plate is on at what time but other than that it is relatively free expression.

Lastly - relative to the list of dignitaries that stop by at Pastenier's: that's one of my favorite things about our little group. Not only do you see some cool cars but often you get to meet the guys that designed and built the cool cars.

K

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  #938  
Old 02-26-2017, 02:06 PM
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FYI on Tempest SD. Yesterday Franz showed me a email he shot off to a friend to get more info on the status of the car. Stay tuned for more info.

On another FYI two of my friends as well as regulars at our Saturday morning gathering have their Trans Am featured in two of this months magazines. Dave Miller's '701/2 T/A in Muscle Car Review, by Barry Kluszyck and John Nickolas on decoding the SD Trans Am's in Hemmings Muscle Car by, oh, by Barry Kluszyck. John has a nice collection of SD Trans Am's and used his white T/A. There is a book coming out with John in it.

As a note last week the first customer delivered 2017 Ford GT showed up at our Saturday morning gathering at Pasteiner's.(02/18/2017) Check YouTube 2017 Ford GT by DTRockstar1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NswfqpKe14s

I believe the serial number was 10. So far the only other ones delivered are to Mark Fields and Bill Ford Jr.

AND lastly. Here is the opening act to kick off this weekend's Detroit Autorama, 02/24-02/26/2017. The Duke's of Hazard General Lee doing a jump behind Cobo Center along the Detroit River on Atwater:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRSke4IrCk0

Just an average winter weekend in Detroit! LOL

Take care.

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  #939  
Old 02-27-2017, 01:46 PM
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How about this for "PERFECT" Timing. ACME Trader is releasing Paul Goldsmith's '63 SD Tempest:

The ad reads; "The Day A Super Duty Pontiac Tempest Destroyed The World’s Best Sports Cars

Paul Goldsmith did just this in his 1963 SD Tempest during the 1963 250 Daytona Challenge Cup!"

When you have a few minutes and want a great read about how this block of American iron annihilated some of the best race cars of the day, click on the link below where Brian Lohnes, of Bangshift, has perfectly captured this amazing feat, http://bangshift.com/bangshiftapex/t...t-sports-cars/

ETA is May 2017 and pre-orders are being accepted now via the contact info below and at www.acmediecast.com. ;

Estimated production of the regular version is just 600 pieces. Item A185901, $129.95

Or

You can also order a version that comes with a certificate of authenticity signed by Paul Goldsmith! 250 pieces. Item: A180591S, $134.95

Est Delivery May 2017.
Retail Customers Contact: bekah.panyard@acmediecast.com
Call: (888) 209-2263
Website: www.acmediecast.com

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  #940  
Old 02-27-2017, 02:16 PM
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That's awesome, thanks for posting! I'll be looking into getting one.

I'm sitting on the edge of my seat waiting to hear further updates on the car, if M-B can arrange a coming home party for it!

Alex

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