[AGTO8U]

My 70 Judge was also built in the Fremont plant and sold through Larry Hopkins Pontiac in Sunnyvale. Those were the good ol days back then as both facilities have been overcome by imports now. The Fremont plant became a joint venture with Toyota many years ago and when GM went bankrupt the place is now scheduled to close March 2010. What a shame as it was and is a wonderful plant, 4500 employees and 100 suppliers in the area are going to be affected.

[DAN]

Originally Posted by Jeff Hamlin

Great Stuff, Thanks Guys.
The bare control arm/drum pic is interesting. I didn't think they would have been painted after the engine was set? I did note the Oil filter as that has been a pc of assy' debate for years. What also caught me was the lack of any overspray on the trans/bell.
That is another pc that is always debated.
Anyhow Great stuff. Keep em' coming.

Looks like overspray on the bellhousing in pic #4 and no overspray in pic #5.

[AJD1964]

Wow! Awesome Pictures!
My Red '64 rolled out of that plant around June 15, then sent to AE England Pontiac in Hollywood.
I think my Wife's Corolla was also built there!

[GTOnly70]

Cool, thanks for posting. My '65 GTO rolled out of the Fremont plant in September 1964. Car is all original (including drivetrain, paint, top, and interior) and is still as solid and tight as the day it rolled off the assembly line.

[John V.]

This is AWESOME stuff. 60sstuff, have you thought about having this stuff reproduced? I would love to have a copy of it.


My '64 GTO rolled out of Fremont in Nov. '63.

I was unaware that the Plant was BRAND NEW!

Keith, did you notice the Regular Production Start Date? We have wondered if Plants started on different dates, at least in this case, Sept. 3 was same start date as at the Pontiac Plant that year. And the date of Pilot Production is also listed.

442dude, I did not know about the "blackout" process. I do remember the Pontiac Plant guy that Eric White interviewed about 10-12 years ago (article is rerunning in Smoke Signals last few months) spoke about the thin, black paint that was "drizzled" on the chassis. If you only saw the unpainted A Arms and not the later photo, you'd have no idea.

DAN, I think the "overspray" on the bellhousing is an optical illusion. I agree that the Engines would not have been retouched at the Assembly Plant, so any paint on the bellhousings would not have been engine paint (not to say some paint or markings couldn't have been on the bellhousing, just not from when the paint was applied at the Engine Assembly Plant in Pontiac).

I believe the marking on the Trans is most likely the Model No. for the Trans. The 2 bbl 326 was backed by the Model 30 Super Turbine, the 4 bbl 326 (so-called 326 HO) was backed by the Model 31, and the GTO 389 (4 bbl or T-P) was backed by the Model 40. These designations all per the Dec. 19, 1963 Tempest Inspector's Guide.

Keith, no doubt in my mind, the B & W photo was taken a moment or two before or after the similar color photo. If I was betting, the B & W shot was probably originally a color film photo and reproduced in B & W.

I don't know if the "debates" will end, since this represents one Plant at one point in time. I'd always understood that the Oil Filter was already installed when the engine was painted. But whether the entire can was covered in paint or only the "side" that was exposed, who knows? Chances are that some were painted more completely than others. But you wouldn't go wrong painting the tink engine color which kinda makes using an NOS PF-7 filter a moot point, doesn't it?

Although it looks like the front suspension did get painted black somewhere in the Assembly Plant, we can't tell from the pictures how thoroughly. Was the underneath of the upper A Arm painted? Brake drum? Backing plate?

In a previous discussion about the color of the shocks, grey or black, is it possible the shocks were grey but then "blacked out" at the Assembly Plant?

And from the Lansing pic, looks like there was plenty of opportunity to get black overspray on the engine and other stuff like brake hoses and fittings that were already in place.

One last comment, no doubt in my mind that the Buick was painted Code J that Buick called Surf Green, the same color as my Pinehurst Green GTO. Always cool for me to see that color!

Thanks again for posting all this.

[johnta1]

It appears the front wheels were installed after the engine was installed.
I would have thought the wheels would already be on it when it started down that line.

Probably the front suspension would be painted before the wheels were put on.
They probably used a 'shield', a rectangular piece of cardboard/metal with a handle that they would stick between the engine and the frame to keep the overspray off the engine.

We need to find some of these guys that worked on the line to get some of these 'insignificant' details.
Back then, it was just part of the process, so they didn't think it was 'important' to remember.

Cool book, anyway.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by johnta1

It appears the front wheels were installed after the engine was installed.
I would have thought the wheels would already be on it when it started down that line.

Probably the front suspension would be painted before the wheels were put on.
They probably used a 'shield', a rectangular piece of cardboard/metal with a handle that they would stick between the engine and the frame to keep the overspray off the engine.

We need to find some of these guys that worked on the line to get some of these 'insignificant' details.
Back then, it was just part of the process, so they didn't think it was 'important' to remember.

Cool book, anyway.

Nope. No shields in any plant I ever worked in.

Pretty typical for tire/wheels to be installed well after the engine is installed. Keep in mind the chassis is typically hanging from chains (not sitting on the ground until just before body drop) and the tires would block access to some of the items that would need to be secured.

K

[John V.]

For anybody that wants to understand the build process better, I encourage you to read the excellent report from the Camaro Research Group:

http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

The wheels/tires were installed at these Plants even after the Body & Front End Sheetmetal were installed, until that point the Body/Chassis was suspended from an overhead conveyor.

The report describes the build primarily for the F body at Norwood & Van Nuys (VN also built full size Chevys) and things had already begun to change in the late '60s as GM began to eliminate the separate Fisher Body & Car Div. operations.

But in '64, these two operations were still very much separate.

The other very informative piece was written by Eric White, a series of articles that appeared in the GTOAA "Legend" called "Made in Pontiac". It is being reprised in the latest issues of the POCI "Smoke Signals", I'm not sure if there is new info or new pix. The series was based on an interview Eric conducted with a former Pontiac Plant line worker who started there with the '64 Model Year. Great illustrations to show the sequence of operations on the Final Assembly side of the operation and some nice pix from inside the Plant too, from '64.

[442dude]

where has 60sstuff gone to???? Come back we need more pics!!!!!

I would pay for a copy of these if possible.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by John V.

Keith, did you notice the Regular Production Start Date? We have wondered if Plants started on different dates, at least in this case, Sept. 3 was same start date as at the Pontiac Plant that year. And the date of Pilot Production is also listed.

Yes - that's good info. We usually don't see that level of detail when researching production dates.

Originally Posted by John V.

442dude, I did not know about the "blackout" process. I do remember the Pontiac Plant guy that Eric White interviewed about 10-12 years ago (article is rerunning in Smoke Signals last few months) spoke about the thin, black paint that was "drizzled" on the chassis. If you only saw the unpainted A Arms and not the later photo, you'd have no idea.

John - this process was still in place even when I started with Truck Assembly. Calling it "painting" is really a bit optimistic; we always referred to it as "chassis black" and it really was sort of a drizzling or "hosing" of the black material in the general direction of the intended surfaces. Adequate, nice appearing, complete covereage was really not a priority.

Originally Posted by John V.

DAN, I think the "overspray" on the bellhousing is an optical illusion. I agree that the Engines would not have been retouched at the Assembly Plant, so any paint on the bellhousings would not have been engine paint (not to say some paint or markings couldn't have been on the bellhousing, just not from when the paint was applied at the Engine Assembly Plant in Pontiac).

Agree. Knowing the production process "overspray" was simply not possible.

Originally Posted by John V.

I believe the marking on the Trans is most likely the Model No. for the Trans. The 2 bbl 326 was backed by the Model 30 Super Turbine, the 4 bbl 326 (so-called 326 HO) was backed by the Model 31, and the GTO 389 (4 bbl or T-P) was backed by the Model 40. These designations all per the Dec. 19, 1963 Tempest Inspector's Guide.

Good thought. Thanks for pointing that out.

Originally Posted by John V.

Keith, no doubt in my mind, the B & W photo was taken a moment or two before or after the similar color photo. If I was betting, the B & W shot was probably originally a color film photo and reproduced in B & W.

Yah - when I went to 442dude's website the two pictures appeared on the same page, one immediately following the other. So much for my "great revelation"! (lol - it really did take some serious thought, guys. Really!).

Originally Posted by John V.

One last comment, no doubt in my mind that the Buick was painted Code J that Buick called Surf Green, the same color as my Pinehurst Green GTO. Always cool for me to see that color!

There are a few colors that just scream "1963!!" "1964!!" That's one of 'em...


K

[bigpop]

Not to stray off point,but I noticed,when I got my club roster,there is a picture of the


first GTO's build sheet.September 11 ,1063. Larry B.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by bigpop

Not to stray off point,but I noticed,when I got my club roster,there is a picture of the


first GTO's build sheet.September 11 ,1063. Larry B.

(...trying to remain poised...lol)

a) Which club roster is that, Larry?

b) Can you post a pic?

We've had some similar discussion about seeing "the first" GTO build sheet; in that case it ended up being for an early "zone announcement" car but not what we would consider "first".

If I can find that thread in short order I will link you up.

K

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by bigpop

September 11 ,1063. Larry B.

That would be an early car....



I think we can see now how date codes on cowl tags can get messed up....

[bigpop]

THE Cruisin' Tigers GTO club. I'm just trying to help,not get jumped on!!! This is what was written in the club roster caption.I didn't write it.Perhaps the caption wrier is incorrect,I wouldn't know,I was lucky to read any of the dang thing!! LOL

If you can find the other thread,I can compare,before taking 4 weeks to figure out
how to post a picture of a picture to the site.

I can read where it says Zone Announcement Cars on the build sheet,but the other writing is difficult for me to read,I have ONE EYE!!!!!!!!!!!! Jeez,give me a break.LOL

[Keith Seymore]

That would be the same build sheet we have discussed, then.

Here's the thread:

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ncement&page=2



JohnV's comments are in post #16

Originally Posted by John V.

A copy of a Manifest for one of the Zone Announcement cars was published in The Legend, late in '05 (October issue, IIRC).

I do not believe that it represents the very first '64 GTO produced. The Prod. Date is shown as 9/11/63 for that one.

Unless PHS claims otherwise, I do NOT believe this was the very first production Lemans with GTO option assembled at the Pontiac Plant.

I believe because it is identified as a Z.A. car, it was considered "significant". IIRC, a copy of an article from the Dallas paper of a test report of one of the Z.A. GTOs was also included in that article. This is the car I alluded to in my first post here.

I suspect this Manifest may be the one attributed to Sawruk, although I think Mattison was given credit for supplying the copy from the microfiche records.

If there is a record of an earlier GTO, I would welcome the opportunity to see a copy!

K

[bigpop]

That's the same one,oh well.The caption concludes,"John Sawruk presented this at the 2004 GTOAA nationals." It doesn't say to whom,or anything else for that matter.
It seems to me that there would be no reason for J.S.to give false information.Anyhow,it is obviously one of the early ones,that works for me!!
Thanks K. for the post Larry

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by bigpop

That's the same one,oh well.The caption concludes,"John Sawruk presented this at the 2004 GTOAA nationals." It doesn't say to whom,or anything else for that matter.
It seems to me that there would be no reason for J.S.to give false information.Anyhow,it is obviously one of the early ones,that works for me!!
Thanks K. for the post Larry

False = never. Erroneous = maybe.

We are all learning more and more every day.



K

[Colin Frolick]

neat pictures, thanks for sharing!

I was made in Fremont, CA too

[Prairierust]

Not sure how to post these pics, but anyone with march 1964 CARS,The automotive magazine, might want to post the GTO article. I was curious about the drizzled paint on the REAR axle etc. Great pics showing that the rear axle may have been drizzled on and the lower control arms; both assembled in raw steel. Front suspension shows the stabilizer and bushing brkts as raw steel. Lower and upper control arms blackened on top surfaces only. This car might be the Wangers car, but only one alt belt.

[johnta1]

Prairierust, when you are in the reply page, cursor down below that text window and there is a button - Manage Attachments

Click that and a separate window opens where you can browse your hard drive for pics and select them.
Then it will upload them when the 'Upload' button is clicked.

I believe Javascript has to be enabled on your computer.

We would love to see the pics.

If you have troubles, send them to me.

johnta1@wallaceracing.com

I can post them.