[geeteeohguy]

I have to agree with you, John. I think my first choice would be either Nocturn Blue or Marimba Red. Followed by Starlight Black. I'm also partial to the non-popular, but in my mind great looking and 'period' Pinhurst Green. I like the later Palmetto and Linden Greens, too. I agree that a parchment interior can make pretty much any color 'pop'. My least favorite '64 color is Skyline Blue, followed by Alamo Beige.

[Terry Gartner]

I ordered the paint chips to maybe get a better look. I expect I'm a couple years away from any paint anyway. But yes, anything with Parchment interior is pretty cool My 72 (yellow) has it, but what a bear to keep clean!

[AZgoatguy]

I've had a Sunfire Red GTO for many years and, though not my favorite, it grows on you. I bought the car in December 1968 and that color came with the car, and I remember wishing it was any color but that one. To be fair, however, at that time the paint was greatly faded by the relentless Southwest sun and looked a very dull pinkish. But that was okay, the tri-power and 4-speed got all my attention - just can't begin to estimate the hours and gallons of gas spent cruising Speedway Blvd here in Tucson on Friday and Saturday nights. In 1971 I had a repaint done and went the a gorgeous Dodge color - Dark Burnt Orange Metallic. This was a knock-out color on the car, everyone loved it! Then in 1978 I decided to repaint again and this time went back to the original Sunfire Red metallic. I had been a bit nervous about returning to the Sunfire but when I saw it out of the paint booth I was stunned (and relieved) at how different it was from the old faded paint from before - it was a really beautiful color. WOW! As a couple of you noted in this Thread the color is more Salmon than pink... it really is unique. Because it was still a daily driver into the the early 1980's the paint, being metallic, slowly began to fade in the Arizona sun. I stopped driving the car in 1984 with the intent of refreshing the entire car - engine, carpet, new top, and with three coats of paint it needs to be stripped to the steel. However, other GTO's came along and the '64 still sits today in the back of my shop in all its faded pinkish glory. I'd think that with today's paint technology... base coat/clear coat... etc. that even Sunfire Red metallic would look good for many, many years. And too, these cars today don't get everyday sun like they did when they were just fun old used cars. Attached are a couple photos from 1980 when the Sunfire Red was two years old.

[Terry Gartner]

Thanks, I did get a chance to look at the paint chip. It certainly is quite unique. I have decided to keep the original color. It will be nice having it a bit different than most.

But harder than that is that wonderful blue on the inside console and other items. I sure wish I could find that in a spray can.

[AZgoatguy]

Hi Terry,
Okay, Sunfire Red it is... cool!

Also, you mentioned the about the 'blue' on the '64 dash and console. Some years ago I found a blue that is about a close as we might hope to get without some reproducer making and marketing a total match. It's Vinyl & Plastic Color Spray made by SEM and is #15213 BLUEMIST, comes in a 13oz spray can. I have it on the insides of the instrument pods and also between the ribs on the dash and console. It looks really good and has that correct look (at least in my opinion). Check it out, let me know what you think of it.
Gary in Tucson

[65Mark]

For dash and console paint check this thread

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=723828

[John V.]

I believe this is the article you referred to:

http://www.highperformancepontiac.co...o/viewall.html

All I can say is that polychromatic automotive paint was NOT new technology in '64.

They were difficult to refinish with good color match but that was generally true of the poly colors, not specific to Sunfire Red.

The metallic flakes were aluminum produced by Alcoa and by '64, the use of these flakes was commonplace. Alcoa produced the flakes in multiple sizes, Fire Frost was a Dupont registered trademark and used larger aluminum flakes to create a more "brilliant" appearance. Fire-Frost paint was very expensive compared to the standard polychromatic offerings (Cadillac claimed about triple the cost).

All of what you say about consumer reaction to the color may have been true. Wangers purportedly claimed the same.

Except the part about buffing. Like all lacquers, the poly colors still needed to be buffed out at the factory. Buffing techniques were the same for these colors as with the non-poly colors.

I'm sure some thought Sunfire Red looked dull in any lighting, same as I suspect some thought Pinehurst Green Poly (my color) or Saddle Bronze Poly looked dull. Perhaps some guys ruined a new finish by overzealous buffing. But there was nothing unusual about the techniques to be used.

Iris Mist was a standard '65 color. Like Sunfire Red, it was not at all popular and dropped for '66. Unlike Sunfire Red, it seems to have a lot of fans today. I have always thought it was unattractive. But it clearly was not popular in '65.

I am not familiar with any story about limited availability of Nocturne Blue in '63. I do know that the same color was used by Chevy, Olds, & Buick. It was so popular, all 4 Divs. offered it again in '64.

'65 Iris Mist was a bit more "exclusive" in that it was only offered by Pontiac and Chevy (as Evening Orchid). It was just as unpopular with Chevy buyers. And both Divs dropped it for '66.

You can make the case that certain colors were popular and desirable but infrequently ordered. '65 Tiger Gold might be one such case. But that limited usage was because of price. Few were willing to shell out for special paint colors. Special colors also extended production lead times since they were not stocked at the plants.

But for standard colors at no extra charge like Sunfire Red, popularity can clearly be determined by sales figures. And every year, stylists dropped the dogs, kept the winners, and tried to anticipate what color choices might be popular the next year, adding them to the offerings.

If you really think Iris Mist was popular in '65 but Pontiac and Chevy intentionally limited the availability of that color then we will have to disagree over GM's sales practices in that day.

I would agree with you that Pontiac might have pulled the color if they had warranty problems with it.

But I disagree that buyer's loved the color. I did screw up the math when I suggested that least popular might mean 30,000 cars built in this color. Actually, least popular probably meant 2% or so of production, so more like 12,000. But that would still mean about 25 cars per day at the Pontiac Plant alone and 50 per day combined for all the plants.

As you can see from the linked article, that is the origin of the supposed 30 day cancellation story. So unless PHS wants to comb thru the '64 Pontiac Plant records to confirm that Sunfire Red was painted every day on at least some cars, I don't think additional documentation will turn up.

The idea that these polychromatic metallic paints were not new is easily documented. These metallic colors were already well-entrenched by the dawn of the '60s.

Wangers is probably a pretty good source of some info. But this story is full of holes.

The only reason that would make sense to me for why Pontiac might have stopped painting cars Sunfire Red would be if they had a glut of them sitting unsold because buyers disliked the color so much. Even that I think is very unlikely. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I'm pretty sure a small percentage of buyers liked the color enough to buy one each and every day. I'm estimating roughly 2% bought a Sunfire Red Pontiac. The most popular color was purchased by more than 10% of buyers. A color of average popularity was picked by about 4-6% of buyers.

I agree, it is all speculation unless there is documentation. I'm confident the documentation does exist to prove that Sunfire Red was never cancelled for a 30 day period in '64, but unless PHS wants to settle it, we will just have to decide for ourselves.

But at the very least, it should be taken as fact that metallic polychromatic paint was not "new" at GM by '64. GM was using metallic polychromatic paints well before the development of acrylic lacquer in '56, in fact polys were around prior to '50 but Alcoa developed their aluminum flakes in the early '50s and at that time, most automotive paint colors began to include these flakes.

So nobody should think that the problem existed because this was some sort of early version of metallic paint when clearly the paint technology was many years old by then.

Buick did use the same color in '64. Nobody has ever suggested it was a problem color that I am aware of with the exception of Wangers. Others simply say that it was rare. Usually, an unpopular color remains unpopular, regardless of the car, so it should be no surprise that this color was rare on a '64 Pontiac and also rare on a '64 Buick. Like '62 Biscayne Taxicabs, rarity doesn't always mean desirable and often doesn't.

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Old Goat Racer

There's NO grey area. You either love it or you hate it. It's unique, go with it!

kinda OT but whats the color of your 59? I had a Starchief same color combo. I think it was called sunset glo or something like that.

[John V.]

You're assuming there is a shred of truth to the story. There simply isn't. The color was never cancelled. Only in JW's mind was that true. If you want to believe it, that is your choice.

You are mistaken about GMs first use of metallic paints. I think you are confusing the story with the introduction of Dupont's acrylic lacquer. Acrylic lacquer was first used around '57 and was not at all limited to the Corvette. Acrylic lacquers came out in non-metallic and metallic colors right from the start.

Early metallic paint at GM dates at least back to 1927 at Cadillac. Many low end cars of the '30's had metallic paint. Prior to WWII, the flake size was very small and the effect was not as dramatic as what came later. The metallic paints that characterize the '50s & '60s were more glittery and made use of the aluminum flakes that Alcoa introduced in the early '50s. Fire-Frost was the extra glittery paint that Dupont produced using very large flakes. But the aluminum flakes were being added to GM automotive paint prior to the switch to acrylic lacquer.

Not sure why you don't believe that Sunfire Red was unpopular. Every model year, color choices were tracked for popularity. This wasn't an opinion poll, you simply logged how many cars were sold in each color. Dupont has logged the most popular car colors since the early '50s. Dupont's abbual list is general (blues, reds, etc.), wouldn't specifically log a color such as Sunfire Red. But Pontiac certainly could tell you how many cars were sold in a given color. Whether you want to believe it or not, some colors were selected much more often that others.

With 15 color choices, if all were selected equally often, each color would be on 6.7% of the total. But in reality, the most popular colors each represented 10-15% of the total. A handful were in the range of 4-6%. But the least popular were ordered less than 2% of the total. I don't know if the Chevy hobby has published sales totals by color, but one guy has claimed that less than 1% of all '65 Chevys were painted Evening Orchid. I can't vouch for that tidbit but I'm familiar enough to know that unpopular colors did produce those kinds of very low sales figures.

What we think of them today isn't important. Tastes in fashion and color have continually changed. What was not so popular in 1964 could be wildly popular 10 years later.

And I already explained that given the volumes these cars were produced in, even an unpopular color was still sprayed on a ton of cars. So yes, they did sell.

I think you are getting closer to the truth about Sunfire Red when you consider that the appeal of the color may have been for women. Women only represented a small fraction of the decision making market for cars at that time. But they were targeted and colors like Sunfire Red and Iris Mist may have been primarily intended for them.

But the question is whether Pontiac ever withdrew Sunfire Red. I doubt it. You believe it. You believe it was a popular color. I'm sure it was a dog.

No harm, that's what makes a horse race.

But we have to share the same facts. If Wangers was correct, there would be a gap during which Pontiac produced no Sunfire Red cars. I will attempt to log production dates for Sunfire Red cars and see what that tells us. Won't be an easy task and of course PHS could figure it out much quicker. But I'll let you know if anything comes to light.

The only ones that I can readily find were produced on 7/20/64, near the very end of '64 production, and another produced on 7/6/64 (different plants). So I think we can say with some certainty that Sunfire Red was available at the end of the Model Year. Now to find evidence that a gap in Sunfire Red production existed as is the claim.

I came across 11B (Pontiac) and 4B (Fremont) Data Plates for Sunfire Red cars but I would rather see the PHS docs. Years ago, I logged engine info from one of the very earliest built '64 GTOs, it was Sunfire Red, it was a 10B car but I did not log the plant in those days. I don't think there is a debate that the color was offered at the beginning of the year however, so we are really looking for a gap sometime in the middle of the year.

The only '64 paint issue that I'm aware of concerned the change to Marimba Red going from the '63 version to the '64 version.

See the attached document. The change was announced at the outset of the Model Year and there is no evidence that any '64 was painted in the '63 color.

Aside from saying there was a slight change in shade for the '64 Marimba Red, no explanation is given for why this change was made. For refinishing work, both shades were produced.

Funny you should mention candy apple red. Marimba Red was a LOT closer to candy apple red IMO and was a very popular color, I have numerous docs for Marimba Red cars. When I bought my '64, it had been repainted to a maroon. But I interviewed the guy who bought it off a used car lot in '66 (when it was still original color) and I asked him what color it was, without skipping a beat he said "candy apple green" (original color is Pinehurst Green which I wouldn't have called candy apple green, as a teen I painted my bicycle candy apple green from a rattle can and it was a much brighter green, more like Kelly green, but he called it that).

I have no idea what Wangers has claimed for the Nocturne Blue. But I do agree that colors were carefully selected to appeal to the market. I know the story of the first Judges being all Carousel Red to get noticed.

But the color offerings each year were carefully chosen. Dupont and others could produce hundreds if not thousands of colors. Each year, new colors were available. Each car manufacturer carefully selected the colors they would offer as standard. I gotta believe there was some "collusion" going on, because the color selections were always unique between the competing Corps. With the exception of black or maybe white, Ford rarely (never?) offered an identical color that GM was offering. Somehow, care was taken to be sure that didn't happen (although you could still get Ford to paint a car in a GM color and vice-versa by special order).

I think we are both curious about the Sunfire Red story attributed to Wangers in that article. I think there is already sufficient proof to claim BS on the whole thing, but we both would like to see if something more can be uncovered one way or the other.

I've read thru all of the SCNs published during the '64 Model Year, I don't recall anything pertaining to Sunfire Red paint problems. I would think that if the factory was experiencing warranty problems caused by overzealous and worthless buffing of Sunfire Red cars, they would have published something in the SCN to warn about it.

I do not have Flash Bulletins, perhaps something would have been published that way.

You ask, where did "they" get the info on the 30 days. It is in a quote attributed to Wangers. I do not think Wangers is one to rely on published documentation from back in the day, I believe the only source of these facts is contained in his brain, his recollections from back then. When those recollections don't match to reality, I get suspicious about the validity. That is what struck me about the Sunfire Red story. His premise is that this paint had "what pretended to be metal flake but this was a new technology". If he was quoted accurately, then he is quite obviously wrong. The paint did contain metal (aluminum) flakes and the "technology" was many years old by that time. And 9 other standard Pontiac colors also contained the same aluminum flakes that year. I don't think you could ever find documentation to prove the 30 day cancellation story (I'll be embarrassed beyond belief if that is found) but it would be possible to disprove the story by use of PHS records. And that is what I expect to be the case when we start looking at production records.

I guess it sounds more romantic to say the color is rarely seen because it was a special paint that was a challenge to apply and maintain rather than to admit that the public in '64 mostly thought it was an ugly color and 98% of all buyers not only did not make it their 1st choice but wasn't in their top 5 choices.

I like seeing it today because I enjoy the wide variety of colors that were available, they all "look" right for the time. I don't think anybody needs to embellish the story about why so few cars were built with this color.

Chad, in the 2nd post you also mentioned the warranty issue. I know you have lots of documentation, were you posting based on any of that or just the mag article story?

Let's keep at it, if you know of any Sunfire Red PHS records, please post the date of production.

[John V.]

More on the Sunfire Red/Coral Mist. Found a reference that claims only 645 '64 Rivieras were produced in Coral Mist, representing 1.71% of total Riv production. Data Plate shows it was built at Flint 02C.

[64woodwheel]

I know of a Tempest Safari Wagon 02B Code N. I've never found any factory or service docs. about the cancellation or warranty claims. I'll keep digging.

[John V.]

Chad, just went thru this thread, saw you quoted the Wangers Sunfire Red claim in it.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=659575

There is also a pic of a Fremont Sunfire Red Wagon Data Plate in the thread, shows 2A.

He didn't post the PHS but these Time Built code data points might be the best I can do.

[John V.]

Here's another old thread.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=544060

Fremont Sunfire Red Lemans 2 dr. Hardtop, shows 5B

I also came across a very old thread for a Fremont Lemans Sunfire Red convertible, by VIN very, very early 824F1788 and the Body No. was BF 87. It apparently did not have a standard Time Built code on the Data Plate (no pix posted). Owner was asking about it. Based on the VIN and the Lemans Convert Body No., the car may have been built in late Sept or maybe early Oct, but definitely early. Just another early example, I'm not counting it, but still looking to fill the holes in mid year production.

So far what I have evidence of:

10B (plant unknown)
11B (Pontiac)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
4B (Fremont)
5B (Fremont)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[John V.]

Input from another member here, Pontiac built Lemans Convertible, 11C.

Still have some big gaps, but have only tracked a handful of cars.

Terry Gartner, what about yours?

Latest update:

10B (plant unknown)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
4B (Fremont)
5B (Fremont)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[John V.]

Input from a member here, '64 Bonneville convertible he has since sold, Sunfire Red built at South Gate 1/7/64. And another member has a GTO convertible in Sunfire Red, 12A from Fremont. Have spotted a '64 Star Chief, '64 Grand Prix, and a '64 Catalina on the net, but no way to contact the owners. I have a couple requests out.

Still lots of gaps but the holes are filling up.


10B (plant unknown)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
4B (Fremont)
5B (Fremont)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[John V.]

Running out of leads. This one from Terry.

10B (plant unknown)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
5B (Fremont)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)

[gtopaul13]

I own a 64 Sunfire red and it is not pink, changes color in different light hard to describe copperish with a slight red hue? checl 100th anniversary issue of hemmings musclecar mag for pictures

[John V.]

gtopaul13, where was it built and what is the Time Built code on the Data Plate or the Date of Production on the PHS document?

I'd like to include it on the list. It is a factory Sunfire Red with Paint code N, correct?

I gather it is a '64 GTO hardtop. I don't subscribe to that mag.

Cover car, nice!

http://www.hemmings.com/store/detail...roduct_id=1723

[gtopaul13]

3rd week of april in pontiac yes origional clor

[John V.]

Thanks. I'm keeping my eyes open for more input. Anybody know Kenny Gregrich in Utah? Or John Novelli of the Gateway GTOs? They both own(ed) Sunfire Red GTOs.

Latest list with yours included:

10B (plant unknown)
11B (Pontiac)
11C (Pontiac)
12A (Fremont)
1/7/64 (South Gate)
2A (Fremont)
2B (plant unknown)
2/20/64 (Pontiac)
4B (Fremont)
04C (Pontiac)
5B (Fremont)
7/6/64 (Fremont)
7/20/64 (Baltimore)